problems with halifax

[sussex1]

Hi

 

I have been having an arguments for some time with Halifax re this CCA which I originally felt was an application form and stated the account was therfore in dispute

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax2-2.jpg

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax-2.jpg

 

I heard nothing for a few months but did receive statements adding interest and late charges etc, even though i advised when account in dispute they cannot and today finally received this letter

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifaxoct2.jpg

 

I have only posted their responses to various issues i raised

 

What I am concerned with now is

 

is the CCA valid, the terms are on th ereverse of the doc and do have £25 fees but the front does say application and there is no Halifax signature

 

if it is enforecable fair enough but what about their commetns they can add fees etc (their answer number 3)even when an account is in dispute?

 

I am pretty certain they cannot but what would be my response and on what am i basing this?

 

many thanks for any suggestions

Edited October 4, 2008 by sussex1

[dpick]

Hi

 

I have been having an arguments for some time with Halifax re this CCA which I originally felt was an application form and stated the account was therfore in dispute

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax2-2.jpg

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax-2.jpg

 

I heard nothing for a few months but did receive statements adding interest and late charges etc, even tgough i advised when account in dispute they caano and today finally received this letter

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifaxoct2.jpg

 

I have only posted their responses to various issues i raised

 

What I am concerned with now is

 

is the CCA valid, the terms are on th ereverse of the doc and do have £25 fees but the front does say application and there is no Halifax signature

 

if it is enforecable fair enough but what about their commetns they can add fees etc (their answer number 3)even when an account is in dispute?

 

I am pretty certain they cannot but what would be my response and on what am i basing this?

 

many thanks for any suggestions

 

Hi this is just my opinion based on my own experiance and from reading and helping on other threads.

 

I have seen cases where an application form with all the prescribed terms within the document has been accepted by a court as an executable agreement. I would tend to agree with your interpretation that charging interest applying charges and reporting default etc is enforcing an account while in dispute.

 

Problem for me is that I have only disputed an account after obtaining advice on an agreement or lack of one, I have been advised that a creditor could start to apply charges etc when/if a dispute is resolved.

 

Sorry I cannot be more helpful dpick

[sussex1]

thamks, I am leading towards this may well be enforceable but am concerned with the charges.

 

Since the account was put in dispute the debt has goe up by £400 on a £3k balance and previously I had been paying £10 per month with interest etc frozen for a couple of years.

 

Any other views on how i should respond?

 

thanks

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Sussex

 

I have got the same application form.

I think Halifax are trying to be cocky and photocopying the T&C on the reverse.

 

I am prety sure the original agreement does not have the t&C on the reverse as I says on my agrement that I should have received a copy of the T&C in the post.

 

Something else that gives it away is the T&C conditions are leaflet size, photcopied at an angle and there is a leaflet ref number bottom right.

 

HAK

[creditcardmug]

I agree with HAK, i dont think the second scan is part of the original signed doc, therefore i dont think they have an enforcable agreement.

 

Does it actually say on the page you signed that the prescribed terms are overleaf?

 

I would send them the account in dispute letter, and stop paying them.

[sussex1]

many thanks for your help, I have hoewver already sent the disputed letter and this is their reply. Is there anything more specific i could or should be saying?

 

I stopped paying them from the end of April when the account first 12+2 days were up. They have since added charges, late fees and interest and as you will see in the link above they say that when account is in dispute this means they just can't enforce it but can request payments and add charges. Any ideas what i should reply to this? Its just annoying to see the debt is now substantially higher frim when i first requested my CCA?

 

thanks again

[TheChancellor]

I received exactly the same front & diferent T&C on the back (different figures in the APR box & diff. Ref No in the bottom right hand corner).These are my thoughts on it from my own thread:

 

Yes, my name & address are correct.

My date of birth is wrong.

My bank's name is missing but the sort code is there & time with bank is there.

 

The basic form is in light lettering & then they have printed in bold letters each of the required fields (except as above).

 

They seem to be suggesting that this is a follow-on form after they have got the details from my Application Form & they have added them for me just to sign.

 

I am very "picky" and everything has to be just right with me.I even get told off for correcting the kids' homework lol so it would be VERY unusual for me just to let it go through.I underline my signature & the one on this form has the "underline" right through my name which again is not normal.

I was either having a very bad day or someone is in to cut & paste.

 

Might be interesting to see the original application form if one exists - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) perhaps?

 

There is printing on the back of the form.

It is called "Financial Information" and lists special promotion rate, APR, handling charges for cash, charges - but it has a different document reference (in tiny type on the bottom edge of the form) to the front!

i.e. it could have been photocopied to look as one page.

Think these would be the conditions of use?

 

I just have a "feeling" about it - such as the fact that it is presumably exactly the same as my application form.If I have already answered all of these questions in my handwriting why would they just copy them down neatly & send in essence the same form out for me to sign again?

And they haven't signed it.

 

If that one is enforceable why send out the shiny new 8 page contract with detailed T&C which isn't signed & only shows my current address?

I feel like they are trying to flannel me & am tempted at the moment to call their bluff.

 

My form is Feb 2004.

 

Would Sussex1 & Having_a_Knightmare mind measuring the distance from the top edge of the back page down to the top of "I" for Important Information? Mine measures 52mm.

 

If they are cut & pasting by hand then the distances should vary even if they have managed to keep them square.

[sussex1]

sorry for delay I see what you mean re the print codes and the front and rear of mine are different as well. All the details on the front are correct though.

 

I have noticed the right side of the box "the agreement" is not boxed off. It makes no mention of the terms being overleaf or similar and it is not signed by them.

 

The distance from the top of the page to "I" on the reverse is 54mm and it is at an angle as you say.

 

Any view on what to say?

[TheChancellor]

Do you remember receiving this "For Your Signature" form to sign?

I can't but it was 4+ years ago.I dont know why they would re-write the handwritten application just to have you sign a "neat" copy of the same?

 

Why not just progress to the proper agreement?

 

Did you get a lovely "bells & whistles" 8 page agreement beginning "Parties" and going into great detail?

 

Mine features my new address & is unsigned.I think it just shows what I should have received & their letter went into loads of blurb about "You've been happy enough to pay the acount for 4 years, what's the problem now".

 

........& a threatogram from Blair,Oliver & Snott on the same day.

 

Smells fishy.

 

I wouls SAR them & specifically ask for a copy of all app.forms & agreement.See if they can get the photocopying on the back of your form to match the one you already have lol.

[akania]

i have received exactley the same thing for my daughter. It looks like someone has tried quite hard to make sure the terms on the back are not to squiffy . We also received print outs of agreements which are not signed but stating that the agreement is between halifax and my daughter blah blah. Apart from the MBNA agreement , which is two photocopies of what looks like ripped paper this is the weirdest one I have recieved

 

Oh also can i just ask, Im going to also send a SAR to all of the creditiors, does this mean that they will send me a new CCA? Gotta try and get these charges back, i ould support a small country on what theyve had out of may daughter.

[findingthecheese]

Hi all!

 

I also received a lovely "bells & whistles" agreement featuring my current address & unsigned. I also had the same "you've been happy enough to pay the account for 7 years yada, yada, yada...".

 

I have also now received a threatogram from Blair, Oliver and Snott claiming that I've been ignoring their attempts to contact me (wtf?!!?). Blatantly untrue as I asked for them to contact me by letter only, and haven't received a thing until their latest "love letter".

 

I've sent an S.A.R to Haliprats and told BOS to back off as the account is still in dispute.

 

Not sure what I'll receive next, but I'm sure it will be worth the wait....

 

I am worried about what their next move will be, but hopefully I'll find sufficient advice and support on CAG to respond in kind!

[TheChancellor]

Oh also can i just ask, Im going to also send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to all of the creditiors, does this mean that they will send me a new CCA? Gotta try and get these charges back, i ould support a small country on what theyve had out of may daughter.

 

When you say "new" CCA do you mean another ie repeat copy?

 

I asked this question on my own thread but never got an answer.

 

I would have thought that if a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) covered everything they held on you then they should suppy another CCA but they may say that you have already had that one.Not sure.

 

Their reply doesn't really add up as it's "too much".It probably covers their responsibilities under CCA but they may be answering a different question.

 

Can't understand why all my papers from them are covered in (fresh) staple holes? Even the single photocopy of the Signature sheet???

[akania]

i have a massive issue with these cca's. Im trying to sort out my daughters nightmare finances, but and call me suspicious by nature, its not hard to photocopy bit and bobs where you want them. This is my whole problem of not seeing the true agreement, which i know they wont send me so what to do ????

[TheChancellor]

i have a massive issue with these cca's. Im trying to sort out my daughters nightmare finances, but and call me suspicious by nature, its not hard to photocopy bit and bobs where you want them. This is my whole problem of not seeing the true agreement, which i know they wont send me so what to do ????

 

Learn to play poker lol.

 

Not for the money but you have to be able to play everyone else's hand as well as your own.I've only been into all this CAG stuff for a couple of months but I think you start to get a sense when they are struggling & flanneling.

 

As I said with mine they just went into overload - "you've been quite happy upto now" letter, tons of T&C, big shiny new agreement,BOS threats, so at the moment I'm treading water until I can afford the tenner to SAR them!

 

Unless things change I am happy to call their bluff because if they were holding "Pocket Aces" they would have upped the stakes by now.

[akania]

sussex i have the orginial terms for 2004 and they are not whats on the back of your cca...not even close:)

[sussex1]

Do you remember receiving this "For Your Signature" form to sign?

I can't but it was 4+ years ago.I dont know why they would re-write the handwritten application just to have you sign a "neat" copy of the same

 

no i cant but like you it was back in 04

 

Did you get a lovely "bells & whistles" 8 page agreement beginning "Parties" and going into great detail?

 

yes but these are current terms. I've had nothing from BOS. I think I am just going to send the ususal non compliant letter and point out to them the print codes on either side and ask them to confrim they are the same document. Also they have not signed it and nowhere does it say refer to terms overleaf.

[sussex1]

sussex i have the orginial terms for 2004 and they are not whats on the back of your cca...not even close:)

 

 

I'm not sure why, if they have the original of these docuemnts why, they would not copy the full terms. Perhaps thats it, they simply don't have the original!

[akania]

its a very weird thing to do, talk about dropping yourself in it from the off.

[TheChancellor]

I'm not sure why, if they have the original of these docuemnts why, they would not copy the full terms. Perhaps thats it, they simply don't have the original!

 

I think they are making it up as they go along.

 

Nearly every sheet has multiple staple holes in it.

I think they swap the paperwork around to suit whoever is writing to them.

 

If you read their statements regarding CCA obligations they are probably correct but are answering a different question.

 

" I enclose the necessary documents to demonstrate a fully executed agreement under s.78 of the CCA 1974."

 

Yes, you have but the one original page that I have signed doesn't seem to!

[sussex1]

right, i think I need to mention (again) they can't add charges when is dispute and question if what they have sent is one document or not.

 

I've used several differnt letters I have found on here (thanks to all the original posters) and intend to send them this....anyone got any views, particualrly re the authenticity of what they say is a valid CCA?

 

When an account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for

payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst

the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest to the

account, nor make any further charges to the account. In the absence of a properly executed agreement, such an act would also be an offence under the

Data Protection Act 1998.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must

have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such

information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement,

so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

To comply with section 61 of the consumer credit act 1974 which by

the way refers to the signing of an agreement (Not an application), a

document must conform to regulations made under the provisions of section

60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 otherwise it cannot be properly executed

 

Now then, these regulations I refer to are the Consumer Credit (Agreements)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). These regulations set out the form and

content of agreements. For an agreement to be compliant with the regulations

it MUST embody within the agreement, the prescribed terms laid out in the

SI1983/1553 without the prescribed terms the agreement does not conform to

section 60(1) 1974 and therefore cannot be properly executed as described in

section 61(1) CCA 1974.

 

For your information in case you are unsure. The prescribed

terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer

Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A

term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined

or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on

the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the

debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the

repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of

the following--

(a)Number of repayments;

(b)Amount of repayments;

©Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d)Dates of repayments;

(e)The manner in which any of the above may be determined;

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

I also wish to point out that these terms MUST be contained

within the agreement and NOT in a separate document headed terms and

conditions or words to that effect. On the front of the document you have

supplied there is no reference to what is on the rear and neither is it

signed by you. On the front it also states it is an application and "I

understand Halifax PLC may use credit scoring techniques to assess my

application".

 

Furthermore, if you look at the printed codes on the bottom

right of both sides of this document they are different. If this was one

document would these not be the same? In addition, the conditions on side

two are at an angle and not central.

 

To summarise, I consider you have failed to comply with a lawful request for

a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents

mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed

to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be viewed as both UNLAWFUL

and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful

harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under

section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in

relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your

own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a

detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a 'legal right'; you must

outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this

reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to

remove all such data.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory

authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your

intentions to resolve this matter.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited January 12, 2009 by sussex1

[TheChancellor]

Looking good.

 

Nice spot with the small print about credit scoring.

 

I hadn't seen that one.

[TheChancellor]

Just had another thought.

 

As we all have the same front form with different reverse side featuring Important Financial Information.

 

If it is a "true" double sided form on the original then that would mean that they had to get the whole lot of forms re-printed every time the interest rates on the back changed!

 

Would cost a fortune but it's either that or having the tea-boy print them off their own computer quickly enough to keep up with the credit card orders.

[akania]

so if they have clearly 'doctored' the agreements even if its just by photocopying different terms on the back and there seems to be a fair few of us that have these then what do we do now?

[TheChancellor]

so if they have clearly 'doctored' the agreements even if its just by photocopying different terms on the back and there seems to be a fair few of us that have these then what do we do now?

 

I'm going to write back & tell them that they have not yet fulfilled their legal obligation to supply a "true" copy of the Agreement.

[sussex1]

I sent the letter i referred to ealrier and it was signed for on 11th october.

 

I received however the attached default notice today dsated 7th October

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax14101-1.jpg

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm223/sussex1/halifax14102.jpg

 

Has anyone got any opinion as to whether this been sent correctly (it was not sent recorded) and does it contain all that it should?

 

Given i have told them in a letter thery have reeived since this notice was sent what, if anything do i need to do?

 

many thanks again for any advice

Edited October 14, 2008 by sussex1