Just been clamped!

[Guest pdyke14856]

Mundane. You havent taken a picture of the sign right on front of the building, and you walked towards the one on the wall. I find it incredulous to say you didnt see it as you walked right up to it, within just a few feet.

 

I believe the signs to be very well displayed. It was the first thing I noticed.

 

Normally on a Saturday anything upto 30 people would park there. Only 4 did so that day, so I would say that they worked well.

 

And do you know the reason those signs went up last week. The accountants had been politely asking people not to park in their car park as they couldnt park, their clients couldnt get in and they had been constantly blocked in, so had been putting 'Private Parking Dont Park here notices' on cars that did. One guy took such offence to being asked not to park , he threatened the women in the office and later they had their window put through. So obviously polite doesnt work.

 

So before you start to feel hard done by for parking on other peoples property in front of well displayed signs have a little think yourself(and the others on this site who seem to feel justified to just do what they damn well please), that we pay for this parking, we pay for those polite signs asking you not to park that ****ed idiots rip off, we pay for the signs saying 'Private,Customer or Client' Parking only, we pay for the upkeep of driveway, we pay to have windows replaced, we pay for the insurance on the land incase someone trespasses falls over and hurts themselves, we pay to or have to pick up the litter themselves, we pay to rent it, we pay for all of it!!! The leaseholder (note not the landowner he is already renting to the leaseholder) doesnt make any money from the clampers and the reason you get clamped is because those people who pay for their parking want to be able to use it when they see fit, not when you think it's free.

 

So next time one of you smart arses says 'Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.', ask for a breakdown of all of the above!

 

(Rant over)

Edited September 16, 2008 by pdyke14856

[Guest pdyke14856]

Sigh.. None of this is sinking in is it pdyke? I'm not trying to say I 'didn't do it, guv!' The whole point of my argument is that it isn't clear enough that clampers were operating due to the poorly displayed signs. If I had seen the signs and chosen to ignore them then I would admit that it's my own stupid fault. Next time I'll know to park in the lay-by out the front instead.

 

Actually thats an incredible statement. What it says is, unless someone is holding a stick ready to beat me with, polite notice carrots hold no sway.

 

Unbelievable.

[patdavies]

You take photographs of you illegally parked on someone elses property,.

 

Could you perhaps point me to which part of criminal law you are referring to when you state that Mundane has parked illegally?

[Guest pdyke14856]

Could you perhaps point me to which part of criminal law you are referring to when you state that Mundane has parked illegally?

 

Well I would quote trespass. But of course trespass only extends to aggravation if I remember correctly. Of course, you can park anywhere you please. I could of course come and park on your drive Pat, staring at you from my window and you could serve me a letter and wait 7 days, as you cannot do anything to me either.

[patdavies]

Well I would quote trespass. But of course trespass only extends to aggravation if I remember correctly. Of course, you can park anywhere you please. I could of course come and park on your drive Pat, staring at you from my window and you could serve me a letter and wait 7 days, as you cannot do anything to me either.

 

Oh dear, as I thought.

 

Leaving aside aggravated trespass -which simply doesn't apply here...

 

Trespass is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It cannot be dealt with in a criminal court, a landowner may only sue for damages in a civil court.

 

Trespass is not illegal (criminal) it maybe unlawful (civil)/

 

You may consider that quite a fine demarcation but I think that you should understand the law before throwing around accusation of criminal activity.

 

As to the second part of your response, it is sheer drivel and thus to be treated as such and unworthy of further comment.

[lamma]

us usual PPCs don't recognise what is illegal and what is unlawful. (or what is simple tort and the limits to them) there is no invitation to treat to invite parking on someones drive. I have in the past offered to arrange a living example to PPCs of what can be done if you park on someones's drive and how it differs from car parks. for some reason non of them would get in their cars and try it out. I wonder why that is ? or do I ? . .

[Guest pdyke14856]

 

As to the second part of your response, it is sheer drivel and thus to be treated as such and unworthy of further comment.

 

and is exactly my point, as that is exactly what one person said and did.

[pin1onu]

Write to the SIA to inform them of the clampers' breach of regulations for both displaying their ID and the signs.

The SIA don't give a monkey's about the signs (or release fees). Their sole function is licenses the individuals working in the Private Security Industry. They will be interested in the non display of the damages.

 

Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.

 

Also, would it be a good idea to send copies of my correspondence to each party to all parties, so everyone can see what's going on, or keep them all seperate?

Write to both the landowner/leaseholder and the clamper. Clamping firms have a nasty habit of going out of business overnight. You want them both on notice as you will sue them both.

 

Edit:

Yes they did give me a receipt. Also, While I was waiting for the police to call back another driver pulled into the car park and I warned them about the clamping, they hadn't noticed the signs, and as I was leaving a man in a rather nice sports car pulled in and parked. I wonder if they got him too.

Did the receipt have all the required information. If it didn't report them to the SIA. You can also check the guys registration details on the SIA website. Note there are different types of registration he must be registered for front line vehicle immobilisation.

[pin1onu]

While I don't condone parking where-ever you like I can't let your rant go unanswered. There are better solutions than clamping as some have suggested on this site.

 

that we pay for this parking,

Yes you do and you are entitled to damages when you prevented from using the spaces. The damages should be the amount of loss actually incurred. Anything above this amounts to a penalty charge.

 

we pay for those polite signs asking you not to park that ****ed idiots rip off, we pay for the signs saying 'Private,Customer or Client' Parking only

You have to display those if want to have any chance of enforcing any parking control on your land and even then they are of questionable benefit. However they are required if you intend to clamp.

 

 

we pay for the upkeep of driveway

You'd pay for that whether it was rightfully used or not.

 

we pay to have windows replaced,

What has that got to do with parking

we pay for the insurance on the land incase someone trespasses falls over and hurts themselves,

Normal risk for doing business nothing to do with parking per se.

 

we pay to or have to pick up the litter themselves,

Again nothing to do with parking

 

we pay to rent it, we pay for all of it!!!

Yes you do and it is part and parcel of being in business. You can claim damages as mentioned above for some of it.

The leaseholder (note not the landowner he is already renting to the leaseholder) doesnt make any money from the clampers and the reason you get clamped is because those people who pay for their parking want to be able to use it when they see fit, not when you think it's free.

Actually some landowners do get damages back from the clampers. If they don't then they leave themselves wide open for counter claims on the penalty charges issue. The clampers damages would be nil or very little.

So next time one of you smart arses says 'Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.', ask for a breakdown of all of the above!

No we don't need a breakdown of all of the above just a breakdown of the actual losses suffered (damages).

[electron99]

Mundane - I hope that you can get the clamping company and/ or the landlord into court. I also hope that you show the judge your photographs - especially the first two where you are obviously blocking an access road..

[Jaffa_Cake77]

No we don't need a breakdown of all of the above just a breakdown of the actual losses suffered (damages).

 

Great - so if that was the case then parking in private land would probably work out cheaper than an NCP car park

It is incredibly difficult to quantify or justify the "costs". 1 car parking on private property might cause no costs. 10 cars parking as such might take up all available spaces and cause thousands of pounds of costs.

Who pays for this? The first person who parked... all of them... or just the last 2 or 3 who hammered the proverbial nail in the coffin.

What if only one person parks.. by virtue of the fact the rest of the car park is empty should they get to park for free? how about next time when they come along and the car park is almost full. Having parked for free once then why not do it again?

Where does the buck stop? a proper penalty charge reduces inconvienence for the land owner and gets the message across.

 

Its a very simple thing to understand. If it looks like private property and isn't marked as public parking then it is more than likely private property and isn't public parking. You should accept the consequences.

 

And as for the original poster. he's even gone to the trouble of hiding his car down the side of a building inadvertantly blocking off an access route.

Why do that in an empty public carpark?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Jaffa_Cake77

[pin1onu]

Where does the buck stop? a proper penalty charge reduces inconvienence for the land owner and gets the message across........

Hello the wheel's spinning but the hamsters f***ed off. Ever heard of the Dunlop Pnuematic Tyres vs New Garage case. Penalty charges are illegal. No ifs, No buts. A decision from the Court of Appeal that is as binding as statute law. A court will overturn penalty charges.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for the actual damages. Clamping is a modern day example of damage distress feasant - a remedy for trespass whereby you hold goods or property belonging to another until they compensate you for the loss incurred. Anything over and above that would be deemed a penalty and would be overturned.

 

Its a very simple thing to understand. If it looks like private property and isn't marked as public parking then it is more than likely private property and isn't public parking.

That just doesn't follow. The converse equally applies. I've seen public property that looks like private property. I've also seen cases where private individuals/companies have annexed public land.

 

You should accept the consequences.

Why should we. Clamping has to have met certain conditions before it can be deemed legal. (signage, SIA licensing etc). So it's not as simple as saying just accept the consequences. They rules and the case law have to be followed. The OP is merely exploring whether he has some redress. My advice to the OP has been on the basis that he feels he has a case.

 

BTW I have made no judgement as to the morality of parking where he did. I suspect he won't be parking there again. Regardless of that he did come asking for advice on the legality of the clamping which I have done my best to provide.

[Jaffa_Cake77]

I see you nicely side stepped the issue of what the loss incurred is and how it should be calculated.

Or is every small business owner with customer parking supposed to spend hours of their own time weighing up each case and figuring the loss incurred?

[My Real Name]

-n-

Edited September 17, 2008 by My Real Name

[Jaffa_Cake77]

Yes. Otherwise, any damages claimed would be entirely arbitrary. Although, if it is a _genuine_ estimate, the exercise would only need to be done once, wouldn't it.

 

I promise it wouldn't need to be done just once, especially with people so eager to fight every single parking charge

[pin1onu]

I see you nicely side stepped the issue of what the loss incurred is and how it should be calculated.

I would have thought that it was reasonably obvious however it seems the hamster is still away.

 

You can come up with a figure based on the proportion of rent actually spent on car parking. That will provide a basis to work out the rest. If you have to pay to park somewhere else then that that can be added as damages to the figure above.

 

Or is every small business owner with customer parking supposed to spend hours of their own time weighing up each case and figuring the loss incurred?

You would have to calculate the amount if asked to by a court. Ultimately you have to convince a court your charge was reasonable, was actually incurred and not a penalty added as a deterrence. BTW once you calculate the figure once its relatively to put it in a spreadsheet so that you can use it again.

 

BTW whether a business owner is going to spend time calulating the loss depends on how much he feels the issue is affecting his business and whether he wants the attendant hassle of enforcing any restrictions. It is another part of the business that needs attending to like all the others.

[Guest pdyke14856]

But pin1, by using a clamper, you are in fact employing their services. So in respect, there is a cost involved for their time. In addition, there are two of them, so surely you have to pay for the damages and their time and subsequently the proportion of their vehicle etc etc.

 

So if they want to charge £300 an hour per person, who are you to say thats unreasonable! Im sure if Duncan Bannatyne clamped your car you'd seriously be out of pocket!

[Jaffa_Cake77]

I would have thought that it was reasonably obvious however it seems the hamster is still away.

Very mature

 

You can come up with a figure based on the proportion of rent actually spent on car parking. That will provide a basis to work out the rest. If you have to pay to park somewhere else then that that can be added as damages to the figure above.

 

So if the car park is full of illegally parked cars, which results in a loss of trade as genuine customers decide to go else where... how can a business calculate for that loss?

And as for the rent for that patch of ground for the amount of time the car is parked there. The cost of printing out the "estimated" costs is going to be more than that.

 

 

You would have to calculate the amount if asked to by a court. Ultimately you have to convince a court your charge was reasonable, was actually incurred and not a penalty added as a deterrence. BTW once you calculate the figure once its relatively to put it in a spreadsheet so that you can use it again.

Court? so not only is time lost having to work out how much was lost because of some inconsiderate pratt parking but time also has to be taken out of the day to attend court.

Brilliant *smacks head*

 

BTW whether a business owner is going to spend time calulating the loss depends on how much he feels the issue is affecting his business and whether he wants the attendant hassle of enforcing any restrictions. It is another part of the business that needs attending to like all the others.

So it is

But it is also responsiblity of car ownership to know that you cannot simply park where you like simply because the signs might not be up to spec or polite enough.

[lamma]

But pin1, by using a clamper, you are in fact employing their services. So in respect, there is a cost involved for their time. In addition, there are two of them, so surely you have to pay for the damages and their time and subsequently the proportion of their vehicle etc etc.

 

So if they want to charge £300 an hour per person, who are you to say thats unreasonable! Im sure if Duncan Bannatyne clamped your car you'd seriously be out of pocket!

 

also suggest you check employment law, the clampers are not employed by the landowner. the cost of time is specious - though often trotted out. whoever the clamper's real employer is they are paying for his time whether he clamps or not. It is part of the fixed costs. The time argument holds no water.

[pin1onu]

Court? so not only is time lost having to work out how much was lost because of some inconsiderate pratt parking but time also has to be taken out of the day to attend court.

Yes. If you use clampers then that is a distinct possibility. If you are a business owner contemplating this solution then you should factor this possibility into the equation. Ditto if you use dodgy invoices masquerading as Parking tickets. People can and will fight back against shoddy and/or illegal processes and practice.

 

But it is also responsiblity of car ownership to know that you cannot simply park where you like simply because the signs might not be up to spec or polite enough.

I have never implied that you can park where you like.

 

Unfortunately whether you like it or not the case law in England and Wales requires warning signs if you are going to use clamps. If signs are not up to spec or are not understandable then that failure falls at the feet of the business. Politeness does not really enter it to it but may persuade some drivers not to park there.

 

Finally I would point out that the responsibility for the decision to park lies with the driver at the time. Despite the contentions of many PPCs, the driver, the owner and the registered keeper are not necessarily one and the same person under civil law.

[My Real Name]

-a-

Edited September 17, 2008 by My Real Name

[Jaffa_Cake77]

The you're doing it wrong, promise or not.

 

If you do it right, you only do it once, and apply that as the basis of your claim each and every time an unsolicited invoice is challenged.

 

Every parking case will have its own special circumstances.

Different time of day

Different day of week

Different length of stay

It was raining

I'm sure I can find 101 others by browsing this forum

[My Real Name]

-e-

Edited September 17, 2008 by My Real Name

[Jaffa_Cake77]

So what would be a suitable loss then?

[Bookworm]

The damages for which you are claiming are for a genuine pre-estimate of losses incurred due to that vehicle being parked.

 

If there is a genuine loss incurred due to that vehicle being parked, why is it so difficult to quantify that loss?

Furthermore, there is no reason why the liquidated damages clause cannot be calculated with reference to a formula or time period, or where the actual damage cannot be pre-estimated with any certainty or is immeasurable at the formation of the contract, and there is case law to support this, so the argument that it would be too difficult or time-consuming doesn't wash.