A complicated marital issue (not mine)... your opinions would be appreciated...

[PriorityOne]

I promised to post this up for a friend of mine, but it's a tad complicated... so I may have to do it in several posts :-|.... or add to this one as I'm going along.

 

Ok.. my friend and her husband have been married for 12 years and are still married, although have been separated for a while now. She still lives in the marital home with the children and he lives in a caravan nearby. Both places are owned and there is no mortgage on the house, but I will need to come back to this later.

 

 

 

Background :

• He is 62, she is 36
  
• He is self-employed and has an monthly income of around £900, which includes a pension payment from somewhere he worked before.
  
• Both have grown up children from previous relationships (although I doubt this is relevant here)
  
• They also have 4-year-old twins from their marriage to each other; one of whom has been diagnosed with severe autism and the other could possibly also be autistic, but this has not yet been confirmed. He does have delayed development though.
  
• She does not work, but is a full time carer for the severely autistic twin, who she receives Disability Living Allowance for.
  

The husband had a heart attack when the twins were a few weeks old and it was a terribly stressful time for everyone. Although he recovered, his drinking began to have more of an adverse effect on him and he began going out about 3/4 nights a week. At the same time, my friend's parents were both gravely/terminally ill and to cut a long story short, both sadly passed away within 9 months of each other and my friend inherited a lot of money.

 

Prior to the deaths, the husband got a business loan to allow them to have a conservatory added to the house... so that he could run his business from there and the arrangement was that my friend would pay him/the loan back from the inheritance from her parents. The conservatory was around £5K.

 

As time went on, he began to spend more and more time out in the conservatory and tried to walk out several times, but didn't actually go. My friend then suggested that he move out altogether to give him the space he needed and he agreed. They discussed things at great length and decided to purchase a caravan on a local holiday site, so that they could still work through the issues with a view to getting back together eventually. My friend paid approx. £12.5K towards the caravan and he paid around £1.5K... but the caravan was put in joint names.

 

It gets complicated from hereon... so I'm posting this bit up first.

Edited August 9, 2008 by PriorityOne
spelling

[PriorityOne]

Right...

 

The husband moved out into the caravan. However, he then started to complain that he had too many outgoings in there and came up with the idea of my friend paying off the outstanding mortgage on the house (around £42K), so that he would no longer have this outgoing around his neck. He was/is still paying some household bills/child maintenance, but he said that it was all too much.

 

Prior to this, the house had been in his name only, but was transferred over to my friend when she'd paid off the mortgage. The mortgage only had 4 years to run... and I can't remember the logic of paying it off now, but know that she to'd and fro'd with it for a while, was reluctant to do it, but went ahead anyway. If he decided to go bankrupt however, the house could still be at risk, but he always maintained he wouldn't and she went with that. He has since used it as a threat now that things have gone sour though. Anyway, he got to keep the associated endowment policy (in his name only) which will give him around £42K in 4 years time. This was agreed between them and was fine at the time.

 

Things between the pair of them gradually got worse and there is no chance of a reconciliation now at all. He has since asked her for £20K in cash to help fund the rent/furniture on a new flat for himself after economising on the truth beforehand, by initially saying it was for the taxman. He agreed to pay this back to her from the endowment in 5 years time.

 

My friend is really struggling to keep this amicable now... and has never wanted to hand over £20K, but is willing to give him £10K and sign over the caravan to him completely. He doesn't want this though... he wants the money and has now threatened divorce and all sorts. I suspect that this is because owning the caravan will give him an asset and he doesn't want one in case he decides to go bankrupt after all.... although he still has the endowment, so am not sure at the moment.

 

He has now seen a solicitor and has become empowered. He now says that he still wants the £20K cash because he's entitled to have it, that she won't be getting it back from the endowment because that is his and that if he took her to court, the court would give him half the equity in the house as well.

 

For what it's worth.... I think he's talking from his *rse, has already drained her from a chunk of her inheritance already, is effectively ignoring the health issues surrounding the twins and have told her not to panic, but she needs further reassurance... so over to you guys P-L-E-A-S-E !!

 

Edited August 8, 2008 by PriorityOne

[JonCris]

You'll get a lot of conflicting advice some of which if followed could be disastrous.

 

As this matter is somewhat complicated & whilst I'm a great supporter of this site I strongly suggest your friend instructs a suitable family solicitor

[2Grumpy]

Even if your friend gives him 20k, he will probably go for half the house in a divorce anyway.

[PriorityOne]

I agree with your point about conflicting advice JC... it's a very tricky one. He seems to have resented the fact that she's inherited money and IMO, has played her quite well. She doesn't want a divorce and wants to keep everything amicable (which rarely works in the early stages anyway)... My worry is, that if she seeks (further) legal advice at this stage, he will up the attack out of anger and spite and she will be left with a hefty legal bill for just arguing the toss through a solicitor.

 

My gut feeling is to wait for him to strike first through his solicitor.... and, that if she hands over £20K at this stage, that he will probably use it to fund his own legal campaign against her anyway. She does want to give him something despite his controlling behaviour while they were together. She doesn't want to see him with nothing.... which I do understand up to a point.

 

At this stage, I've advised her to put her offer of the £10K and ownership of the caravan in writing to him via her solicitor, so that she at least has a paper trail of what she's prepared to do.... even if he rejects it and throws a strop.

 

2Grumpy... when she paid off the mortgage, I did warn her that he would probably come back for more and he has.... despite him being the sole beneficiary of a £42K endowment policy in 5 years time, courtesy of my friend paying off the mortgage with her inheritance ! IMO, this will never stop until they finalise it through a divorce, but while he won't agree to any financial terms.... she'll only be throwing good money away paying for a solicitor to try and get him to agree to something.... which he probably won't unless it's what he wants. While he doesn't have her £20K to hand to prop him up (his words to that effect) however, then a divorce will cost him dearly... so at the moment, he's not going ahead with that either. He doesn't have it and he knows that.... so we have a bit of a stalemate situation for now.

 

All that aside, she has full responsibility for special needs twins and never gets a break, so whether he decides to go for half the equity or not, I'm assuming that he wouldn't get very far because one of the twins will need 24 hour care for the rest of her life.... and she is only 4 years old right now. He appears unable to cope with young children... and has a history of walking out when they're small (2 previous marriages), so would not be interested in joint custody if it meant sharing the living arrangements, especially due to the girl twin being severely autistic. Care/access to the twins is therefore not an issue... but money definitely is !

 

Thanks for your input... please keep it coming if you can think of anything else good or bad. Matrimonial law is not my area....

Edited August 8, 2008 by PriorityOne

[JonCris]

Whilst I understand that for her it's a very emotional subject she letting her heart rule her head.

 

From what you say the guy obviously thinks her money is his money & the sooner she takes steps to deal with that the better otherwise there's little she can or will do

 

Also her solicitor won't be happy that she's asking for advice here particularly if his advice conflicts with that given here.

 

She has to put her thinking head on otherwise there's absolutely no point in giving any advice which if given & which you have already indicated she ignores anyway

[Lula]

From what I remember when I got divorced, yes he could go for half the house, BUT chances are that it wouldnt need to be sold until the children are of age, but I dont know what would happen as long as at least one of them is severely disabled.

 

Also, there is the matter of the 42k endowment that will be maturing that is solely in his name, she is entitled to at least half of that, he doesnt seem to have grasped that fact, plus, if he has £900 per month coming in, she is entitled to expect child maintenance.

 

For what it is worth, she should at least talk to a solicitor to see the legal aspect. I think that she is in a strong position. BUT she seems to think (forgive me for sounding harsh) that he will be appeased and not rock the boat if she gives in. From bitter experience I know that this is not the case and, like blackmailers, always think that they can come back for more, she should cut him off now and draw up, at the very least, a legal separation, personally though, if it was me, I would be going for the divorce.

[raydetinu]

Somple dont give over any money or assets!

if divorce proceedings are started then the dreaded Form E comes into play when you claim for financial relief.

Just wait and let it play out through the courts, but solicitors will take thei cut!!!!!

The house will not be sold until kids are 16 or maybe not at all if dependant.

[JonCris]

Lula the point is it appears, according to the posts, she already is speaking to a solicitor but I read it that she's looking for some magic bullet which she hopes will resolve matters without causing any grief which unsurprisingly her solicitor cannot

[tinkerbell20]

She needs to take legal advice before she divests herself of any assets.

[Lula]

Well JonChris, I didnt see it quite like that, just wanting to garner further opinions, if it were me, I would start proceedings because the sooner she rids herself legally from this man, the better. and dont give up anything until it is agreed in writing that he will not come back for more.

[JonCris]

You instruct a solicitor & you trust them to deal with matters you don't seek 2nd opinions from none professionals who if they are wrong you can't sue particularly when matters are so complicated.

 

It's one thing to check that the advice that is being given is correct but coming here without advising what that advice is is a waste of time

[PriorityOne]

Thanks for the input with this one... I know it's complicated and difficult.

 

My friend did go to see a solicitor as JC said, but she told me that because the solicitor appeared to sit on the fence when asked about certain scenarios, she didn't really want to go and see him again. The one she was going to ask to draft up the letter offering her husband the £10K and caravan was her late father's solicitor and although he's not an expert in family law, is trusted with financial matters at least.

 

JC is also right in that my friend is looking for a magic bullet to sort things without causing too much grief.... but I have spoken to her again today and she's now decided to find a local solicitor who deals with family law... as some of you suggested... so that at least she knows where she stands if her husband chooses to go down the divorce route....

 

She is letting her heart rule her head to a certain extent and this isn't being helped by the fact that she's only just started to grieve for both her parents... so there are times when I have to tread very carefully. She is seeing a bereavement counsellor however.

 

She has also said that if she does agree to the £20K cash that he wants instead of the £10K and the caravan (which he doesn't want anyway), that she wants it drawn up as part of a legal separation; to include something about him not coming back for more at a later date... or as part of a divorce settlement. This won't rule out the problems associated with him becoming bankrupt though.. which he's already threatened her with in connection with her refusal to give him £20K.

 

Like you Lula, I've also had an ex who tried to bully me into all kinds of things.... and there comes a point when you just have to draw a line under it all, let them try to do what they're set in doing anyway and defend yourself as best you can.

 

The added complication of this one though.... is that because he is that much older than her and has had one heart attack already... he's said that if they don't divorce, that she'll get his pension when he dies because separated or not, they won't be legally divorced... and this is worth quite a bit. They are both very practical about that side of things.... but I can't help feeling that he's used this angle to get her to do all sorts in order to safeguard a future for the twins.

 

She asked me to type all this up for her... so I will relay what you've all said and stress the importance of her making an appt. with a family law specialist.

 

I will keep you posted as things progress.... and thank you all so much.

[Lula]

Hi P1, he is trying to blackmail her, in law, she has the right to pension provision and he can even declare her or the children as beneficiaries of his pension should he die, whether they are married, divorced, co-habiting or whatever.

 

She really needs to see a good lawyer that is an expert in family law, it may cost alot, but it will be cheaper in the long run than being blackmailed.

[caro]

Forgive me for being blunt, but at 62, even if he's had a heart attack he could live another 20 years or more, so she'd be stuck with him, unable to move on with her own life. At her age, even with the difficulties of having at least one disabled child, she may well want another relationship at some point. Seems to me he's dangling the pension as a means of keeping his meal ticket.

[JonCris]

spot on Caro She needs to get rid of this guy father of her kids or not. I could give advice but I think she needs to sit down with a suitably qualified family solicitor to sort what is a situation made more complicated by her emotional state

 

My advice would be, in order to help her overcome her greiving, to redirect her energies to sorting out the situation with this guy

[PriorityOne]

Well, my friend seemed much more positive this morning and is set on making an appt. with a family law solicitor next week. Thanks for your comments about the pension; she is going to ask about this, along with a list of other things re. legal seperation vs. divorce and so on.

 

Between us, we've decided that the bankruptcy is a bluff.... because he has the £42K endowment still maturing and if he was to cash it in and spend it beforehand, he'd lose thousands.... His reason for not wanting the caravan is because he then won't get a council flat apparently (as well as having an asset to offset against bankruptcy ).... but, he may have his bubble burst when he realises he's unlikely to get a council flat anyway... since he's not on DLA or anything and has no dependents. Times have moved on from those days.

 

My friend is still willing to give him something, but if the solicitor advises against this, I hope she'll take his/her advice. IMO, he's had enough already.

 

He said a few more things to her this morning, which I was able to shoot to bits for her quite easily when she called.... However, his manner (as she described it) suggests to me that he assumes she'll part with this £20K because he thinks he has her worried.... and all he needs do is wait and collect, so to speak.

[Lula]

I hope that she is realising that he is a bully, she should not give him anything until it is all done above board and ratified by a court order, that way there will be no comebacks and he cant keep asking for more

[PriorityOne]

I hope that she is realising that he is a bully, she should not give him anything until it is all done above board and ratified by a court order, that way there will be no comebacks and he cant keep asking for more

 

She does know he's a bully, yes.... but her need to keep things amicable has so far overridden everything else. IMO, she needs to get angry.... but this hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, when a solicitor points out the implications of what she's agreed to so far (paying the mortgage).... and what she's considering giving him in cash.... she'll see him for the selfish w*nker he really is.

 

She's getting there.... but still has a long way to go yet.

Edited August 9, 2008 by PriorityOne

[Lula]

perhaps when she realises that the selfish man is trying to rob her and her children of their money, the anger juices will start flowing

[merlin100]

Just digressing for a moment

How many of you know, that even after marital assets have been divided, and the wife/husband has kept the marital home, that there is nothing to stop the other ex-partner coming back in say 5, 10 or even 20 years time and successfully suing the one with the home for half of the difference in value from the date of the decree absolute to the time of the writ?

I had a very spiteful ex wife who tried everything to get me to sell the house, even though the kids stayed with me and didnt want to be anywhere near her. Luckily, I had a very astute solicitor who took a personal dislike to her after she sent him a few threatening letters too ( best thing she did for me).

After a year of her kicking and screaming, and thanks to my solicitor and my kids staying with me, she had to walk away with next to nothing.

But out of all this, and through my solicitor, I discovered the "Clean Break Order" - stamped by the court at the time of divorce once signed by both parties.

This is the only remedy a divorcee has to stop a bitter ex coming back in the future and hitting you once more!

 

And how did I get a woman like this to sign the Order? Now that really is another story, but the old saying applies - Give someone enough rope...............

[PriorityOne]

Yes, (as I understand it) they can come back for another slice of the cherry unless a F&F settlement has been reached prior to the divorce going through. I'm not sure how new the clean break order is.... but am assuming it came into being following several cases similar to yours Merlin, where although you divorced.... a F&F was never signed by your ex.

 

Settlements tend to swing in favour of whoever has the kids though, so it may have been a different story if the kids hadn't lived with you at the time she re-emerged from the woodowork, so to speak.

[kennythecelt]

Hi P1

 

Marital professional needed IMHO.

 

Priority is to get rid of bad rubbish. Look after herself and the kids and do what it takes to achieve that and move on and be happier. She should not be held to ransom, neither should the kids future.

 

BTW does she get Carers Allowance or has she tried to claim for it??

[govtepe1]

Hello

 

I would try and help from my past experiance. but again I advice your friend to fiynd a good solicitor.

 

firstly if your friend is a female and other party who wants the money is a male and both are married and has children together.

 

The law will be on the womans side on the basis that she will keep everthing becuse she will be looking after the children.

 

tell her not to give anything to him other wise he will be back for more .

if both party isnot agreeying on assets then the court will decide. she or he needs to speack to a lawyer befor epassing on any money. and if the other party is threatening for money or harrasing for money , can be reported to police for harrasment.

 

these days courts go in favor of the women and people I know lost everthing to their wifes their houses their money htye where left on the door step with clothes and source pan lol

 

hope this helps

 

but you must advice your friend to get a family lawyer and not give any money as yet untill spoken to lawyer.

[PriorityOne]

Thanks guys.... she does already get Carer's Allowance, yes.