geoffmr1 V HFC/ Weightmans

[geoffmr1]

I would be grateful if you could Paul.

 

I suppose they would say it was sent 1st class so I'd have received it on the 24th & then had until the 6th Feb to deal with it. If you include the 24th & the 6th then it is 14 days, so I doubt I'll get anything there.

[fast_n_furious]

Just a minor point but there were only 28 days in Feb 2007 as it wasn't a leap year, that makes a bit of a difference.

Edited June 23, 2008 by fast_n_furious
tidy

[geoffmr1]

I've just got back from the case management conference & what a waste of time & diesel that was.

 

Whilst I was waiting Weightmans solicitor approached me claiming to be representing HFC, when I pulled her up on this saying HFC had sold the debt on to Phoenix she went sheepish & then said that was right & that they would be making an application to the court soon.

 

When we went into the Judge's chambers he told me straight off under the CPR the case would have to go to fast track unless both sides agreed otherwise & of course Weightmans didn't so its fast track.

 

He accepted Weightmans list of directions & I should be receiving them shortly, however he never gave me a chance to speak so unfortunately I never got say that HFC were no longer the claimants. Whether that would have made a difference I don't know but it would have been nice to find out.

 

The whole thing lasted less than 10 minutes & most of that time the Judge was talking about himself & his law degree which he obtained in 1972. He came across as a nice bloke just one that wouldn't let me speak!! He did tell me how complicated this whole case is going to be & I have serious concerns now that I won't be able to deal with it. He said there are so many counter arguments in the consumer credit law & as such has allocated half a day to the case (thats even longer than Weightmans had requested).

[zhanzhibar]

Hi Geoff

 

10 minutes? Is that all? So do you what'll happen next? Wonder why he won't let you talk & why he told you how complicated it is..? Is he trying to scare you off, do you think?

[robcag]

Hi Geoff

 

Sorry to hear about your experience at the hearing. I think I'd have raised my hand and made it obvious that I wanted to say something, but that's me, and I wasn't there so I don't know what was happening or if that would have been awkward.

 

I wouldn't worry too much by the half day time allocated for your trial hearing. My original trial time had been set at an estimated time of 4 hours when I received my Notice of Allocation to fast track which I thought was a bit long for what seemed to me to be the fairly cut and dried arguments which I (courtesy of pt2537) had put forward as my amended defence. However, at the application hearing called by Restons/HFC, the Judge allocated a full day for the trial.

 

As that hearing was my first time in court, from what I had experienced I imagined that instead of the opposing barrister waffling (squirming) on for an hour or two as I had just seen, the trial itself would just be an extended waffling period.

 

As long as you stick to your arguments at the trial, the law is the law, and unless there is a serious error of judgement by the Judge, you should win.

 

Having said all that, as you know, my case never reached the trial stage. Neither did those of HHNF or Bug. All these cases were won without going to trial, so there's every chance you will succeed under similar circumstances, it's just that HFC and their cohorts will bluff it out 'til the end.

 

Keep at 'em, and play their silly games, and keep your confidence in CAG.

 

Cheers

Rob

[geoffmr1]

It didn't come across like he was trying to scare me off. Infact he made it very plain that if Weightmans/Phoenix/HFC don't produce a CCA their case will be kicked out. The trouble is that won't happen because they insist the Application form they sent me is a CCA. I think he was merely trying to point out that you need to be very informed with regards the consumer law if you want to stand any chance of winning, maybe he was trying to hint I need professional help.

 

I'm still waiting to see the other exhibit which Weightmans claim is the original agreement, until I get to see that I don't really know where I stand or how prepared I'll be to negotiate.

 

Apart from that its just a waiting game. All the paperwork that needs to be provided does worry me as I've never been good with that stuff & apparently I have to provide Weightmans with all the case law examples I intend to use in court.

[pt2537]

It didn't come across like he was trying to scare me off. Infact he made it very plain that if Weightmans/Phoenix/HFC don't produce a CCA their case will be kicked out. The trouble is that won't happen because they insist the Application form they sent me is a CCA.

NOT A PRAYER, as it stands that document is not , i repeat, NOT enforceable by the creditor or the court

 

 

 

I think he was merely trying to point out that you need to be very informed with regards the consumer law if you want to stand any chance of winning, maybe he was trying to hint I need professional help.

 

Its always a bonus to have a lawyer in your pocket, but you dont need one always, just look at our legal success forum, how many had lawyers?

 

I'm still waiting to see the other exhibit which Weightmans claim is the original agreement, until I get to see that I don't really know where I stand or how prepared I'll be to negotiate.

 

Fair point, and one that the court will be fully aware of, if they dont provide the documents that have been asked for, then if they go to trial and pull them out of the blue the judge will take that into account

 

 

Apart from that its just a waiting game. All the paperwork that needs to be provided does worry me as I've never been good with that stuff & apparently I have to provide Weightmans with all the case law examples I intend to use in court.

well you know case law is no problem so no panic there

 

plus there are many knowledgeable people on the forum that will guide you through this, try not to worry, this is not something which you cannot deal with, all you need is a little belief

[robcag]

It didn't come across like he was trying to scare me off. Infact he made it very plain that if Weightmans/Phoenix/HFC don't produce a CCA their case will be kicked out. The trouble is that won't happen because they insist the Application form they sent me is a CCA. I think he was merely trying to point out that you need to be very informed with regards the consumer law you are very well informed already by following the advice given by Paul and others if you want to stand any chance of winning, maybe he was trying to hint I need professional help.

 

I'm still waiting to see the other exhibit which Weightmans claim is the original agreement judging by others experience with HFC, that is very unlikely to happen, until I get to see that I don't really know where I stand or how prepared I'll be to negotiate.

 

Apart from that its just a waiting game. All the paperwork that needs to be provided does worry me as I've never been good with that stuff & apparently I have to provide Weightmans with all the case law examples I intend to use in court that is not a problem..

 

Geoff, I've looked back through part of your thread, but without me trawling right through it, did you ever receive a Default Notice, and if so, did you post it on the thread?

 

As you probably already know, HFC often fail to get this aspect right. The original would probably be preferrable to any 'copy' that you may have been sent, because HFC have a naughty habit of changing the dates on copies.

 

PS sorry Paul, you're a quicker typist than me!

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited June 25, 2008 by robcag
added PS

[geoffmr1]

Hi Paul & Robcag, thanks for the continued moral support.

 

Under the directions which have been accepted by the judge Weightmans must provide me with a copy of every document which they intend to rely on in court, otherwise they aren't allowed to use it on the day. However I must have actually requested the documents & although i have done that several times already I'm going to be sending another letter today for the avoidance of any doubt.

 

I still haven't seen the default notice (which was another of the exhibits). I never received the original which Weightmans are well aware of & so far they have ignored my request for a copy of it, although for what its worth their solicitor did say she would sort that out (I won't hold my breath on that one).

[robcag]

Hi Geoff

 

I only received a partial response to my CPR request from HFC/Restons, but there was a copy default notice included. I honestly could not recall whether I had received an original or not. However, just a couple of months or so ago I actually came across the original whilst I was searching for anything I could find which would be relevant for another HFC claim which I had already been given a CCJ on (purely because I hadn't found CAG at that time).

 

In my case the copy was the same as the original, but this has not been so in several other cases, where HFC have got the dates wrong on the original (therefore invalidating them, which has now been shown to blow their case out of the water), but have then produced 'valid' copies (with changed dates).

 

I'm not doubting you when you say you haven't received a DN, it's just a pity you didn't get one of their famous invalid ones, as that would have helped your case no end!

 

Cheers

Rob

[zhanzhibar]

In my case the copy was the same as the original, but this has not been so in several other cases, where HFC have got the dates wrong on the original (therefore invalidating them, which has now been shown to blow their case out of the water), but have then produced 'valid' copies (with changed dates). That will be my case then...sure do hope as you say Rob ...blow their case out if the water..

 

 

I have just send another AQ to the court..so a waiting game for me too...

[mberman]

Hi,

 

Just to add weight to this I have had copies of default notice sent to me and they have changed the date that it was sent so that it looks like they have allowed 14 days to respond to the default notice! But on the origional it is dated a day later which only gives me 13 days! (surley they are commiting FRAUD by changing the date so that it complies!)

 

They are a bunch of sh*ts as they are trying anything to get out of this they have made an application to the court because we failed to comply to a court order regarding disclosure docs etc... We admit that they were slightly late plus they also did not comply as we did not receive their list on time either!

 

It seems that everything we send without special delivery gets ignored or turns up late!

 

Anyway I am trying to piece the list of events and write to the court to explain that yes I did not comply but also they did not either! And to see if they will cancel the hearing that has been issued for their application.

 

Sorry for going on I think I need to set up a thread for this as my Court case is loomming.

 

Regards

[Hopeful1]

Hi Mberman.

 

As you can see, you are in the right forum. You are right to start a thread of your own where you can properly explain what is what and where your case is up to.

 

Best wishes

[mberman]

Thanks Hopeful1 I will once I get my head around their latest trick.

[Hopeful1]

Thanks Hopeful1 I will once I get my head around their latest trick.

 

 

When you're thread is up and running i'm sure Geoff won't mind if you post the link to it on this thread

[robcag]

Hi mberman

 

As Hopeful1 has already said, you would be best starting your own thread, but .....

 

Hi,

 

Just to add weight to this I have had copies of default notice sent to me and they have changed the date that it was sent so that it looks like they have allowed 14 days to respond to the default notice! This has happened to several other CAGgers and would appear to be dubious behaviour at least But on the origional it is dated a day later which only gives me 13 days! Keep that original very safe as I'm sure you could rely on it rather than the copy (surley they are commiting FRAUD by changing the date so that it complies!) At the very least, if this needs to be brought to the Judges attention (should it come to court) then I think the Judge would probably be very interested!

 

They are a bunch of sh*ts agreed as they are trying anything to get out of this they have made an application to the court because we failed to comply to a court order regarding disclosure docs etc... par for the course with HFC, the cheeky barstewards are nearly always late themselves, that's when they bother to comply We admit that they were slightly late plus they also did not comply as we did not receive their list on time either!

 

It seems that everything we send without special delivery gets ignored or turns up late!

 

Anyway I am trying to piece the list of events and write to the court to explain that yes I did not comply but also they did not either! And to see if they will cancel the hearing that has been issued for their application.

 

Sorry for going on I think I need to set up a thread for this as my Court case is loomming. yes, that would be best. You or someone else might like to post a link here when you've started your thread.

 

Regards

 

Cheers

Rob

[car2403]

HFC are really good at "reconstructing" Default Notices when they are required.

 

Unfortunately for them, they aren't really good at getting those reconstructed documents accurately correct, so that blows their case wide open, IMHO.

 

The problem will be convincing a Judge that such a small deviation from process should result in an unenforceable debt. You, I and everyone reading this probably agrees that it should - but a Judge might not...

[pt2537]

but a Judge might not...

unless you have access to books like, Consumer Credit 6th edition by the inns of Court,(Grays inn) published by the Oxford university press. or Halsburys Laws of England or Goode Consumer credit

 

then you will find judges do tend to follow what youre saying

[mberman]

Thanks Hopeful1 and robcag once i get my thread up if geoffmr1 does not mind I will post a link!

 

Also pt2357 I just ordered a book and its called Consumer credit act 2006: A guide to the new law publisher the law society also contains a copy of the origional 1974 act.

 

Do you think this will be any good!

 

Regards

[geoffmr1]

mberman,

 

I have no problem with you posting a link on here.

 

You have my full support with your case against this bunch of con artists!!

[mberman]

Thanks Geoffmr1,

 

I put in a Application Notice today to view the original cca and some other docs so hoping the Judge will order them to do this! At least then we know if they have it! The Judge gave an order for this to happen on another case of mine so I thought might as well try!

 

Regards

[geoffmr1]

Just received a letter confirming the trial is for half a day on Dec 18th. What a s*** time to get, a week before Christmas when you're supposed to be happy & spending time with the family & instead I'll have to deal with a court case instead!!

 

The hearing fee is to be paid by the 18th July 2008?? I don't know anything about a hearing fee!!

 

Each party shall give by the 25th July 2008 standard disclosure to every other party by list. What does that mean??

 

Any requests for inspection or copies of disclosed documents should be made within 7 days after service of the list, and copies provided within 7 days thereafter. Again I realise this relates to the point above but I still don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

Each party shall serve on every other party the witness statements of the oral evidence which the party serving the statements intends to rely on in relation to any issues of fact to be decided at trial, those statements and any notices of intention to rely on hearsay evidence to be exchanged by 5th September 2008. Not a clue on this point either.

 

The parties shall file pre trial checklists by the 3rd October 2008 (claimants to pay the £100 listing fee by the 3rd October 2008).

 

Anyone have any advice regarding this?? What do I need to supply to Weightmans & the Court??

[robcag]

Just received a letter confirming the trial is for half a day on Dec 18th. What a s*** time to get, a week before Christmas when you're supposed to be happy & spending time with the family & instead I'll have to deal with a court case instead!! There's every chance the case will not even reach the trial stage if recent HFC cases are anything to go by.

 

The hearing fee is to be paid by the 18th July 2008?? I don't know anything about a hearing fee!! I'm pretty sure this is a fee payable by the claimant, and shows they haven't paid it yet. You could try ringing the court on or after the 18th to check if this has been paid (I think they need to pay it to be allowed to continue, so that will be an indicator if they don't pay it )

 

Each party shall give by the 25th July 2008 standard disclosure to every other party by list. What does that mean?? It looks like you have been given similar (though not quite the same) directions from the court as I was given. To help you to understand how to follow these directions you may like to follow my thread which deals with this from post #91 onwards (I had to ask similar questions to what you're now asking); http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/124572-hfc-no-agreement-amended-5.html#post1332838

 

Any requests for inspection or copies of disclosed documents should be made within 7 days after service of the list, and copies provided within 7 days thereafter. Again I realise this relates to the point above but I still don't understand what I'm supposed to be doing.

 

Each party shall serve on every other party the witness statements of the oral evidence which the party serving the statements intends to rely on in relation to any issues of fact to be decided at trial, those statements and any notices of intention to rely on hearsay evidence to be exchanged by 5th September 2008. Not a clue on this point either.

 

The parties shall file pre trial checklists by the 3rd October 2008 (claimants to pay the £100 listing fee by the 3rd October 2008 ).

 

Anyone have any advice regarding this?? What do I need to supply to Weightmans & the Court??

 

HTH

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited July 4, 2008 by robcag
typo

[geoffmr1]

Hi Robcag, thanks for the information.

 

I've just had a very brief look through & will look again later. The pdf file that Paul has given you a link for is no longer working though.

 

I never sent a CPR request so obviously I cannot be relying on anything there, but that aside I'm not sure how I actually set the whole thing out. I saw the one you had done which I can follow a bit but a lot of what you intended to rely on is irrelevant to myself.

[robcag]

Hi Robcag, thanks for the information.

 

I've just had a very brief look through & will look again later. The pdf file that Paul has given you a link for is no longer working though. Just checked the link Paul gave in post #92, and as you say it is no longer working, so I've found the new document link on HM Court Service site and edited it into post #93. Here it is for your convenience; http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305.pdf

 

I never sent a CPR request so obviously I cannot be relying on anything there, but that aside I'm not sure how I actually set the whole thing out. I saw the one you had done which I can follow a bit but a lot of what you intended to rely on is irrelevant to myself. Geoff, my post above was in reply to your questions about the directions you have been given by the court and which it seemed you were asking about. As I said above, your directions were very similar to mine, and if you read from the part of my thread which I quoted (post #91) onwards, you will see I asked the questions you want answering at all the various stages, and you will see the helpful replies I got, and even some examples of how I responded at each stage.

 

Cheers

Rob