TQ for your advice PB. They are noted. Rather than talking about DN which we can only talk about if there is a validly executed agreement, I would appreciate it if you can comment on whether or not I do have an agreement/contract in the first place because all I know is my so-called agreement is made of these a) an intranet e-application form where even their 2 legal firms cannot agree as to when allegedly I applied for the card b) a blank T&Cs with none of my name nor address c) an IP address which as we all know is always changing d)and now suddenly in the disclosure of evidence toegther with their WS, they also introduced another reconstitute T&Cs which is also blank, the only difference is that it has a box on the signature ( for ticking as oppose to signing) which is also blank i.e not ticked. So now, let's forget about the DN or about the termination for a while and focus on this issue.. can anybody tell me 1) How they can suddenly bring in a new evidence i.e the recobtsruct T&Cs with still no names, no signature. not even a tick 2) Whether or not I have an agreement?

Am going to put a point number 3 for my case summary. 3. The Claimant disagree with the judgment in 2 above

TQ Bazaar for your input. might have to rethink my case summary & schedule of issue. In the meantime would appreciate it if somebody could comment on my queries below re the listing Q itself Help! Comments please on the above Might have to rethink about the 2 schedule above after putting kids to bed. Would appreciate any pointers... and here's my estimate of costs.. is this ok do you guys think? Looks fair unlike theirs

I've e-mailed them twice after their e-mail asking the wording to be more non-partisan: They don't like to change their "non-partisan view" of course & reply & This is Pishcon V3 So now what do I do?

OK I think I am in trouible now... Mishcon replied.. So what if I disagree with their issue & case summary?

Submitting these to Mishcon via e-mail this morning. Should I leave point 3 to be skeleton argument rather than issue..owh well.. I'll wait & see what they say 1st this morning.

I am not sure whether to put it here now or to leave it as skeleton argument for later. What do you all think? I got till 10 this morn to decide becoz I told Pishcon I let them know whether I agree with the issue & sent them mine. I might just sent it to them & see whether they agree or not with that 3rd issue. I think I have to read up Carey v HSBC & Amex v Brandon case for next week STAY hearing.

OK this is what I am going to send them tomorrw: Have I misssed anyhting? What do you all think?

Hiya, I am going to put the WS of Fiona again here coz I think that's where I am going to raise my Schedule of issue: Para 2 from the above: can I include this as one of the issue? para 3 from below: another issue; I never received copy of ALL docs in FT1, para 7 ; pages 3-15 i never seen nor received before this. How can this be statement oftruth? para 10.10: The abridged terms is on page 47 to 51 ... I didn't notice until today.. Para 10.11: are they allowed to recon an agreemment as evidence? Page 52-56 Para 24: They blatantly lie as they did not issue the Claim until 29 may 2008. For nearly a year I have been harassed by Newman when I have been requesting the agreement under s78 but they never delivered. How can I use this against them? Para 30 below: Can an executed copy be without signtatures from both parties?

Just checking my other e-mail address & Mr Chik of Mishcon has been contacting me. Here are the attachments to the e-mail Have to say looking at the issues, it basically sums it up but my brain is a bit tired as it is now 3.30 am. I have e-mailed Edwin & told him I can't give any answer till Wed 13 b4 10. Would appreciate some comments on these please. I also noticed something when I went through Exhibit FT1 of Miss Fiona which consist of 100 pages of all sorts of documents tonight. Amongst these 100 pages, there are 3 sets of agreement with terms and conditions; 1st Set a 12 pages long of T&Cs Clause 1- 25 (inc Clause16(2)).All the copies oft he agreement that Brachers gave me before is only up to Clause 8 so this is the first time I've seen Clause 16(2). No names, no signature ...all blanks 2nd Set is the set that Brachers gave with me with only T&Cs up to Clause 8. No name nor signature ( the signature page looks like above) 3rd Set is I think the one that they called the abridged set that got my is my signature although a) I've never seen the agreement in this form before which I did argue in the SJ & my amended defense b) it's still not ticked so its an unexecuted agreement as far as I know c) on the first page where there should be my name as the cardmember is still blank.. My BIG question is, is this allowed in the court of law? Can they just do what they like & bring up evidence as & when they like and we can't say anything? If I have just accepted that I owe the money when they issued the POC, a) that extra cost of £1,143 on top of the outstanding amount I will just paid it. Only just before the hearing of SJ that they decided to change their claim & take that out. b) I would never know whether there is CCA between me & them, i.e an enforceable one at that. As at the moment, I still don't..

TQ shadow. I am updating my case summary at the mo to include this. I am also preparing an estimate of costs and was going through what they sent me. The cost they estimating is c £12k. Here is my estimate of cost My £928 looks quite ridiculous next to their £12k, am I missing something here relating to fast track cost estimate? And what is that estimate costs re Defendant and his solicitor of £1000? Anybody familiar with these sort of thing? Furthermore, am wondering why is Bracher's costs in there too as we already settled that costs following the SJ being thrown out. The cost that was granted to me then include everything from the filing of defense till the SJ hearing so I am actually not quite sure whether I am entitled to claim it all again. What do you all think?

TQ for that clarification, Shadow. I think I understand now. So So the result of the points above being only the court can determine whether the agreement is enforceable? So should I include this point in my case summary or shall I wait till I need to prepare skeletal argument?

Hi all, can somebody explain to me why miss fiona said in para 31of Amex WS that the agreement "did not have a definite duration" hence s98 does not apply?

Ok here is my case summary I need to do the listing questionnaire together with Summary of case & schedule of issues and submit yo court by 14th Oct; can anybody/somebody let me know whether a) the way I do my schedule of issues above is correct and perhaps give me a few pointers what else to write there b) whether my case summary above is the way to do it or whether case summary=skeleton argument hence I need to put all issues now c) whether I need to say sthg about the application to stay in the listing questionnaire part A?

Hi all I am trying to get this argument re Clause 16(2) in my head in simple English. So am I right in thinking that a) in para 20 of their WS, Clause 16(2) of T&Cs give Claimant the power to end the agreement by giving notice to the defendant and vice versa. b) we are saying that Amex cannot do this because CCA is the regulation overriding here specifically s87/88 CCA 1974 so without a proper default under s87 they shouldnt be able to terminate the agreement early. c )so what we are saying is that the Clause 16(2) they relied upon from their T&C is void i.e invalid/ cannot be used becoz of S173(1) (as above) d) we are saying that the insertion of Clause 16(2) in the T&Cs is unfair and under the Unfair Relationship regime the court may find a credit agreement to be unfair to the debtor due to any one or more of the following:- 1) Any of the terms of the agreement or any related agreement 2)the way in which the creditor has excercised or enforced any of his rights under the agreement or related agreement ( this is the one applied to my case i think!) 3) any other thing done (or not done) by or on behalf of, the creditor either before or after making the agreement. Is this the argument re Clause 16(2) of the T&Cs?

HI Debs Congratulations...How did you manage to do it? I just lost my case against them last Friday exactly the same issues. In my case although hard evidence of the change of terms from store cards to credit cards was not brought in by Claimant, the judge rely on the OFT report and in so doing found the case against me on these basis: 1) that the change to crdit card from the Deb store card agreement that has my signature is a VARIATION of the agreement and not MODIFYING the agreement hence the agreement hold. 2) the unilateral terms within the store card agreement that allowed GE capital to change T&C as & when they want it is fair 3) the assignment is equitable (this is the bizarre one becoz I did ask there & then that if its equitable so they can't take me to court on their own without the original creditor which was met in silence & yet still the judgment stands against me!) Do you think I could appeal?

HI Debs Congratulations...How did you manage to do it? I just lost my case against them last Friday. In my case although hard evidence of the change of terms from store cards to credit cards was not brought in by Claimant, the judge rely on the OFT report and in so doing found the case against me on these basis: 1) that the change to crdit card from the Deb store card agreement that has my signature is a VARIATION of the agreement and not MODIFYING the agreement hence the agreement hold. 2) the unilateral terms within the store card agreement that allowed GE capital to change T&C as & when they want it is fair 3) the assignment is equitable (this is the bizarre one becoz I did ask there & then that if its equitable so they can't take me to court on their own without the original creditor which was met in silence & yet still the judgment stands against me!) Do you think I could appeal?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Monty but I have just lost against CL finance on this very issue (Debenham store card to Credit card) Friday just gone. However, having said that I think it all depends on the kind of judge you have on the day and the defense that you have. In my case I think I might have shot myself by including a report from trhe OFT Jan 2004 about the unfairness of changing frm store card to credit card. In my case although hard evidence of the change of terms from store cards to credit cards was not brought in by Claimant, the judge rely on the OFT report and in so doing found the case against me on these basis: 1) that the change to crdit card from the Deb store card agreement that has my signature is a VARIATION of the agreement and not MODIFYING the agreement hence the agreement hold. 2) the unilateral terms within the store card agreement that allowed GE capital to change T&C as & when they want it is fair 3) the assignment is equitable (this is the bizarre one becoz I did ask there & then that if its equitable so they can't take me to court on their own without the original creditor which was met in silence & yet still the judgment stands against me!)

Hi everyone is this what schedule of issue supposed to look like?

Hiya, this is what it says on the blank T&Cs. I can't say what is in the abridged one they been referring to in para 28 of the WS (that has my signature) as I don't have a copy of that..

Hi all, Thanx for the input. As this is only came up in the WS, is this sthg I can use in my summary of case? Or shall i just wait till skeleton argument which I belive I need to prepare nearer the trial date. Is my understanding correct or is summary of case & sekeleton argument one & the same?

I am currently preparing my schedule of issues and summary of case which i will put up here later for feedback please but having read again ms Fiona WS I am getting slightly worried that I missed the date to asked to see evidence particularly what she said on para 28 on the abridged terms signed by me. I have never seen it & this is only came up in this fsattrack proceeding, so am I too late do you all think? I don't actually know what this abridge T&Cs is & how they got my signature... Worried now..very worried...

Hiya, OK I am not eaxctly sure what you mean by them writing to me about the clause 16(2). I did receive this though

Hiya , clause 16(2) of the T&Cs

Thanks for ur reply Andy Myself & my friend Mr Edwin Chik of Mishcon have been swapping witness statement... here it is for all of u to see... I would really appreciate feedback from u guys/gals out there as to what do u think of Fiona Thomson WS...