Moral Dilemma

[linzi1uk]

You'll have been given more than enough time to pay the fine and by the looks of it, ignored a Court summons to answer the charge in the first place. What sort of person ignores a Court summons? Oh yes, a person on benefits with three kids, you're excused.

 

Mr Mckenna

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wouldnt call that enough time from start to finish, it dosent matter how long I was given if I didnt have the money in the first place!

 

28-02-2008 Court Date

05-03-2008 Letter informing me of court fine

27-03-2008 Letter from bailiffs, which I replied to with 4 cheques the same day which took them more than 10 days to reply to (wonder why)

07/04/2008 Reply from bailiffs refusing cheques

14/04/2008 Recieved a removal of goods notice through the door

 

You seem to do a lot of assuming about people,

I did attend court, and I may be a single parents but I work and always have done.

 

If I do get excused, It will be thanks to you for winding me up with your advice

[JonCris]

The debt collecting industry will always expound the myth of the feckless debtor. The will make some concession that they ARE those who can't pay through no fault of their own but they will always claim they are only a tiny minority of debtors most are just wastrels...it suits their purpose

 

However things they are a changing as now more & more of the hard working & assumed responsible, classes find themselves being made redundant attitudes will begin to change

 

When the banks go ahead with their threatened repossessions thereby laying waste to whole communities, as the have in America, people, including hopefully the politicians will begin to realise that it's not the debtors fault & that the DCA's are only there to trade off the misery of others thereby achieving nothing of lasting worth but lining their own pockets

[linzi1uk]

will you please delete

[tiglet]

Sorry, but the subject of this thread is bull of the highest order.

 

I have spoken to my sister, who is high up in the civillian side of the police and whose husband is a DCI, and she has advised me it would be the police who would go knocking, not a bailiff, in the case of someone not signing the sex offenders register. Under the terms of the Sex Offenders Act 1997, failure to sign is an offence which carries a term of imprisonment.

 

Furthermore, if the offender was known to carry an offensive weapon, he would be arrested for that (if evidence was available) or at least the police involved would be informed and the appropriate officers with the appropriate equipment would be deployed.

 

If you are going to bend the truth, at least make it believable.

[robin9342]

Tiglet, I believe the person concerned has already been to court and was fined for not signing the register. John McKenna is the bailiff collecting the fine.

[tiglet]

A bailiff would not be sent round to collect a fine in this manner - I ahve that on good authority - it is considered too serious an offence.

[JonCris]

Quite thats why I made the suggestion about asking the police to accompany him which is what any bailiffs would do

 

I also found it odd that the police were not arresting this guy rather then sending a bailiff to visit a known offender who it was known carried an offensive weapon

 

Surely carrying such a weapon would have contravened any licence & at the very least if caught with a weapon would have removed a peodo from the streets

[tiglet]

On the info I have given from the posts (and I have doubled checked with my sister and brother-in-law) if this situation had happened, the police would certainly have accompanied a bailiff (if, indeed, one was even used) and would immediately arrest for non-payment of fine.

 

If this has not happened (which, is inconceivable in the force they work for, but I am prepared to concede anything is possible) the bailiff should complain to the court that they are endangering him and ask for police assistance.

[JonCris]

Anyway the measure of a person is can they take criticism without wanting to take away their ball & here it appears not

 

If you really want to help people you take it on the chin & get on trying to help....................you certainly don't run away when there are no personal remarks like, your an ijeet, involved

[honey5]

/me touches her forlock and says thankyou me lord i rest my case

honey x

[tiglet]

?????

[Don_puppyd7]

I have a question for you John, what your take on people that pay direct to Council or debtor in full therefore making sure they not paying bailiffs direct, Some in your field call it illegal and some making some very crazy threats yet been unable to carry them out when invited to pay a visit, also what your take and view on backdating letters of removal notices and claims of visits that never took place to try claiming fees.

[John McKenna]

I have 1 question John.

 

How do you know when a debtor can pay..........but won't

 

Experience JonCris. There are many factors i have to take into account but the level of goods a debtor does or doesn't have is usually a good starting point. Needless to say, if a debtor has no carpets and hangs sheets up for curtains, the likelyhood is they're a "can't payer".

 

 

Drop the attitude you have and the cockiness when replying to threads and help those who genuinely need the help, you may find that people wont be so rude back.

 

I'm sure you'll find a complete lack of "attitude" in my posting history if you looked further back than the last week. Unfortunately, regardless of how helpful I may or may not be, some folk will always be rude because of what I represent. That's fine though, as I've said in the past, I deal with unwarranted abuse on a daily basis so the remarks of a few internet trolls acts as nothing more than a tickling stick and probably encourages me to post more. :grin:

 

 

A bailiff would not be sent round to collect a fine in this manner - I ahve that on good authority - it is considered too serious an offence.

 

In an ideal world your "good authority" might be right but I can assure that bailiffs are sent round to collect fines from sex offenders by the Courts. Just to clarify once more, the person in question has already been fined. For all I know, they might have been sent to prison for failing to sign the register. Knowing the Court system though, they probably just got a slapped wrist and a fine.

 

Anyway the measure of a person is can they take criticism without wanting to take away their ball & here it appears not

 

If you really want to help people you take it on the chin & get on trying to help....................you certainly don't run away when there are no personal remarks like, your an ijeet, involved

 

Sometimes I simply don't have the time to respond to every comment on every forum I frequent. Thanks for reminding me to subscribe.

 

 

I have a question for you John, what your take on people that pay direct to Council or debtor in full therefore making sure they not paying bailiffs direct, Some in your field call it illegal and some making some very crazy threats yet been unable to carry them out when invited to pay a visit, also what your take and view on backdating letters of removal notices and claims of visits that never took place to try claiming fees.

 

 

On your first point, I'd feel a little silly making idol threats in an attempt to collect fees when the debt has already been settled.

 

On your second point, the company I work for use hand held GPS systems so they have proof of the times of visits made. Without this type of system in place the system is wide open to abuse. Having said that, even with the GPS's in place, people still cry foul that the bailiff didn't leave a letter so we can't win either way.

[seanamarts]

But with the GPS it can only prove that you were in that area, not that you actually did anything, unless you have some sort of satalite camera attached lol

any way thanks for the answers, have you changed your views on debtors since frequenting the forums, as I know that a lot of bailiffs look at debotors as these little people who just cant be ar*ed to pay thier debts.. can you understand why people dont like bailiffs when most break the law.

Have you read some of the threads where the OP's have been assaulted, me included and what is you view on your fellow bailiffs who do this, by the way I won my case and the bailiff was lucky he didnt lose his job.

[tonycee]

so we can't win either way.

 

And long may that continue, with the fight back gathering momentum, and the utter despise now being portrayed by more than just this "troll", I so hope one day you knock on MY door..

[JonCris]

John so you claim that only debtors with shabby homes can't pay whilst those that have decent homes with a few of life's luxuries (flat screen TV HiFi car etc) won't pay.

 

You claim you know this how...............through experience! rubbish.......Most debtors find themselves in their situation not because they have overspent on luxury items but because of illness, redundancy, divorce which has occured long after the purchase of luxury goods...............how do I know................because I deal with debtors almost everyday.

 

Once again the debt collectors mind is exposed as one that thinks that most debtors are just feckless wasters...........I look forward to the day when a few more debt collectors find themselves on their uppers so they can experience the effect their conduct & attitude has on other debtors

[tiglet]

With CAG on the case, hopefully that won't be long - many of them are reporting drop in profits already.

[Tom87]

Agreed with JonCris's last comment. There is no definite way of knowing how rich/poor someone is by looking at their possessions. But a bailiff doesn't care or take into consideration if someone has been made broke due to illness or redundancy or other factors out of their control. I bet they just find it more enjoyable to ruin their lives further.

 

The replies given to the questions about bailiffs only give more justification to the widespread dislike of them. It is very sad to see this attitude but also not surprising, and no wonder they are some of the most unpopular people in our society.

 

Most people who haven't paid their debts have not done so because they are UNABLE to! They are not helped by the excessive and brutal charges that are laid out to them! It is sad to see that you have such a negative view of people and their honesty. There will always be the 'bad' people out there who are dishonest and deliberately avoid paying debts that they can afford, but this is a small minority.

 

A friend of mine recently had his car stolen by bailiffs. He had recently bought the car but it takes 6 weeks for the details to be registered with the DVLA. A couple of days after buying the car, bailiffs came and took the car away, stating unpaid fines by the previous owner. Bailiffs can obviously only take away items that belong to the debtor, not to anyone else, and the car now belonged to my friend. Hopefully these bailiffs will be convicted and go to prison as common car thieves.

[Tom87]

oops sorry I put the message on twice, moderator feel free to delete it

[John McKenna]

have you changed your views on debtors since frequenting the forums, as I know that a lot of bailiffs look at debotors as these little people who just cant be ar*ed to pay thier debts. can you understand why people dont like bailiffs when most break the law.

I haven't changed my views on debtors since frequenting this forum no. Unfortunately, many of the debtors "I" come across ARE feckless layabouts who can't be ar*ed to pay their court fines (a large majority of my workload is Magistrates fines). As such I probably do have a "bailiff's view" in most folks opinions but that doesn't stop me from being able to evaluate someone's circumstances to a certain extent.

 

If I let every defendant have their own way they'd all want to pay £2 a week from their benefits/earnings. This view is based on MY experience and certainly doesn't encompass all debtors. Let's face it, your average layabout I deal with from day to pay won't be coming on here to ask for advice. They simply don't give a damn how many fines they've got or how much they owe the Courts. When all their goods are rented and they know the bailiffs can't touch them, there's no incentive to clear their debts. Hell, if a Court warrant officer pays them a visit and bails them to appear in Court and they don't show you'd think they'd get banged up immediately. Oh no, another £25 fine for bail jumping is issued. It's quite pathetic really. But I digress.....

 

can you understand why people dont like bailiffs when most break the law.

Granted there are many who do overstep the line but to say "most break the law" is a massive sweeping statement and completely unsupported by fact. From your experience though, I understand your dislike and distrust of bailiffs.

 

Have you read some of the threads where the OP's have been assaulted, me included and what is you view on your fellow bailiffs who do this, by the way I won my case and the bailiff was lucky he didnt lose his job.

I read your thread with interest. You were too lenient on him in Court. He should have lost his job without question. There's no excuse for violence from either bailiffs or debtors.

 

 

John so you claim that only debtors with shabby homes can't pay whilst those that have decent homes with a few of life's luxuries (flat screen TV HiFi car etc) won't pay.

 

You claim you know this how...............through experience! rubbish.......Most debtors find themselves in their situation not because they have overspent on luxury items but because of illness, redundancy, divorce which has occurred long after the purchase of luxury goods...............how do I know................because I deal with debtors almost everyday.

 

Once again the debt collectors mind is exposed as one that thinks that most debtors are just feckless wasters...........

 

Your experience is derived from debtors who "DO" try and sort their debts out by the sound of it. That's fine but MY experience on the street dealing with Court fines is a world away from yours. The debtors I generally deal with are in debt because of their own illegal actions. Illness, redundancy and divorce rarely feature in MY debt collection so we'll have have to understand each other's view point on this. If you can't appreciate my experience then your own view is as narrow minded as you accuse mine of being.

[tiglet]

Unfortunately, i believe we have to accept john mckenna's views on some of the people he deals with - I'm sure we all know (or know of) people like this and is a fact of life that a bit of over-generalisation on both sides has happened on this thread.

 

Perhaps, JM, if there was better training for, and screening of, bailiffs they would appreciate the difference as you do and would be prepared to treat those who are in genuine distress/genuinely unable to afford their bills better.

 

until that happy, sunny day occurs, i think you'll find the general perception on this forum is that most bailiffs are bullies.

[casbah]

I'd like to add a bit here, we all know there are people out there that will "milk the system" anyone growing up on a council estate will vouch for that but what gets my back up is, I was bought up on a council estate by people that taught me that you can expect a fair days pay for a fair days work.........so how can a bailiff, that chooses to use a van for work, charge 105.00 per visit when he/she knows she is going to be calling on 8/10 people that day?

[robin9342]

I believe thats called extortion, profiteering or maybe even demanding money with menace....

[JonCris]

I haven't changed my views on debtors since frequenting this forum no. Unfortunately, many of the debtors "I" come across ARE feckless layabouts who can't be ar*ed to pay their court fines (a large majority of my workload is Magistrates fines). As such I probably do have a "bailiff's view" in most folks opinions but that doesn't stop me from being able to evaluate someone's circumstances to a certain extent.

 

If I let every defendant have their own way they'd all want to pay £2 a week from their benefits/earnings. This view is based on MY experience and certainly doesn't encompass all debtors. Let's face it, your average layabout I deal with from day to pay won't be coming on here to ask for advice. They simply don't give a damn how many fines they've got or how much they owe the Courts. When all their goods are rented and they know the bailiffs can't touch them, there's no incentive to clear their debts. Hell, if a Court warrant officer pays them a visit and bails them to appear in Court and they don't show you'd think they'd get banged up immediately. Oh no, another £25 fine for bail jumping is issued. It's quite pathetic really. But I digress.....

 

 

Granted there are many who do overstep the line but to say "most break the law" is a massive sweeping statement and completely unsupported by fact. From your experience though, I understand your dislike and distrust of bailiffs.

 

 

I read your thread with interest. You were too lenient on him in Court. He should have lost his job without question. There's no excuse for violence from either bailiffs or debtors.

 

 

 

 

Your experience is derived from debtors who "DO" try and sort their debts out by the sound of it. That's fine but MY experience on the street dealing with Court fines is a world away from yours. The debtors I generally deal with are in debt because of their own illegal actions. Illness, redundancy and divorce rarely feature in MY debt collection so we'll have have to understand each other's view point on this. If you can't appreciate my experience then your own view is as narrow minded as you accuse mine of being.

 

 

John I understand precisely where your coming from You are used to dealing with in the main people who committed a criminal offence & are ignoring the consequences.

 

But what you need to recognise that even the 'criminal' may no longer be the 'criminal' your used to dealing with.

 

Today's criminal may be someone who didn't close their bin lid to the satisfaction of the local council. Or someone who has dropped an apple core.

 

I won't go on as the list is endless thanks to the government introducing thousands of new offences some of which include what you might think never mind what you might do

 

My point is that you & your colleagues have to realise that more & more of the 'criminals' you deal with may not in fact be criminals in the true sense of the word. Just some ordinary citizen who's fallen foul of the local Stazi & they can't in all honesty be treat in the same way by you

[John McKenna]

I was bought up on a council estate by people that taught me that you can expect a fair days pay for a fair days work.........so how can a bailiff, that chooses to use a van for work, charge 105.00 per visit when he/she knows she is going to be calling on 8/10 people that day?

 

On an average day from those 8/10 visits, 5 will have moved, 3 will have no money/nill effects and two might pay. Of the 105 visit fee the bailiff himself might receive between say £30-40% if self employed or less if employed. Suddenly that 105 per visit doesn't seem so much.....