Moral Dilemma

[honey5]

I work with alot of these people in a secure hospital daily (well nightly as i work nights)

I think you'll find if push comes to shove that you will act as a professional in your field of work.

My feelings are left at home the minute i walk into work, they have to be, im constantly asked by paedophiles how many children i have, how old are they, what sex are they, you do learn to switch off and play your cards close to your chest. Likewise with the threats from murderers and rapists, do you live alone, do you live far, will there be anyone else in the house when you finish your shift???

Normal everyday questions from "ordinary people" but not when they have a history of sexual offence or murder

The "trick" is not to engage in conversation with these people apart from at a purely professional level.

If this person carries a knife, cant you take police protection for your sake (aswell as his ) ?

honey x

[Guest 10110001]

This doesn't exactly come under the remit of this forum so I'll understand if a Mod wishes to lock the topic. I wish to gauge public opinion on a moral dilemma I've stumbled upon. Yes! even bailiffs have a conscience sometimes!!

 

 

I have an HMCS warrant against a person.

 

The offence mentioned on the warrant is "failing to comply with the sex offenders register".......

 

Offences such as these have been criminalised under Section 91 of the Sex Offenders Act 2003 and thus a police matter who executes the warrant under Section 43 of the Courts Act 2003

 

According to the issuing court, the defendant is known to carry a knife.

 

You will need a stab-proof vest, be on duty, wearing the correct uniform, have a colleague and be in radio contact with CAD reporting your position.

 

My initial thoughts are that the defendant is a dirty rapist ****** or paedo so I've naturally got more interest in ensuring I get this warrant paid with maximum fees

 

You cannot judge him in this way, he might on the sex offenders register because he is a serial rapist, or just someone who was prosecuted for not checking his flyzip while shopping at a supermarket.

 

The defendant has moved from the bail address but I've traced them to another through credit reference agencies.

 

Why are you playing private detective?

 

The defendant has ignored 3 letters posted at the new address.

 

The law in this case doesn't provides for you to charge for sending a letter, and there is no contract between you and the defendant enabling you to charge him fees.

 

I've discovered a vehicle belonging to the defendant but I've not seen it at the property since my first letter was posted (flats with seperate garages).

 

I've now discovered the defendant's place of employment and confirmed the car is parked in front of the building during the day.

 

No rocket science there...

 

So, with that said, should I.....

 

1. Return the warrant to the Court as unpaid but with a forwarding address (giving the sex offender time to "move on" again).

 

2. Visit their place of work and very publicly clamp their car outside their very public place of employment forcing them to pay the fine and bailiff's fees.

 

(The second option could jeopardise the defendant's job if the nature of the fine became public knowledge in the execution of the warrant)

 

3. Something else - suggestions please.

 

None, let the police deal with it.

[seanamarts]

 

 

 

None, let the police deal with it.

 

Most think they are the police dont they.. cant understand the reason why he asked the question in the first place.. may be a hidden reason for it perhaps

[casbah]

Why would you treat him any different from any other person you had a warrant for, surely you must be non judgemental, if you would normally clamp a car in front of employers then do so in this case.

Too true

 

If this was Joe public working himself into an early grave to pay his council tax and bailiffs fees, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime

cas

[tonycee]

Its amazing how, when a nasty rash, that we hoped had "gone away" reappears, peoples emotions and dislike for that irritation, resurface..

[John McKenna]

*blows a big sloppy kiss to tony*

 

[tonycee]

John..

 

I have read with interest many of your replies on this forum, and have yet to identify your purpose of being here..

 

You select very carefully the threads that you reply to, and never offer advice that is of any benefit to the forums users.

 

You only ever reply when you, or any bailiff for that matter, will benefit in one way or another.

 

Please keep your kisses.

 

Not even if you were the last person on planet earth.

[John McKenna]

That's the beauty of an internet forum tony. We're not required to have the same opinion nor justify our presence. As for the content of my posts, I prefer to look at them as "information posts" rather than advice. I'll leave the advice to folk like yourself so you may continue to feel all warm inside after helping someone.

[tonycee]

feel all warm inside

 

Tell me, im interested.

 

Do you feel all warm inside after leaving, having completed your "task" ?

[John McKenna]

If I'd taken money off someone as verbally abusive as yourself tony, I'd leave looking like a cheshire cat. :grin:

[tonycee]

Im sure you understand the saying,

 

If you cant stand the heat.....!!!!!!!

 

 

.

 

OH..............If only i was allowed to say what i really want to say....

[John McKenna]

I've been threatened with guns, knives, bats and dogs in the course of my duties. Repeated tongue lashings from my little ol' troll don't faze me tony. :grin:

[robin9342]

I've been threatened with guns, knives, bats and dogs in the course of my duties.

 

Kinda tells you something about how decent, moral people feel about you and your chosen "profession" doesn't it.

 

In my trade, I do get a warm feeling when I have helped someone. Much better than the bleak, cold, hollow and emotionless outlook of the bailiff

[John McKenna]

Kinda tells you something about how decent, moral people feel about you and your chosen "profession" doesn't it.

 

That comment certainly tells me something about your upbringing if you think they're the actions of "decent, moral people"..... :o

[seanamarts]

Answer me this John McKenna. how often do you lie to get to the debtors money and what actions do you take to get it if things dont 'go your way'

Do you think placing your foot in the door a right way to go about getting what you want.

Do you agree with the bailiffs that use thuggish actions to get what they want.

Do you know the rules and regs of bailiff law and do you abide by them.

Do you look at every debtor in a way that they are not going to pay or do you try your best to help them out as they just might be telling the truth that they are in dire straits and just cant afford your outrageous charges.

I would be interested in you answers to these Please

[linzi1uk]

That comment certainly tells me something about your upbringing if you think they're the actions of "decent, moral people"..... :o

 

It is the way decent and moral people are treated by [bailiffs] that make them behave like that,

There is no way I am going to deprive my kids to pay bailiff fees, Im going to fight my case all the way,

Linzi

[robin9342]

That comment certainly tells me something about your upbringing if you think they're the actions of "decent, moral people"..... :o

Personally, if a bailiff were to call at my door, I wouldn't resort to guns or knives. [edited]

And for your information, I was brought up in a loving, stable, catholic home. I believe I am a decent, law abiding citizen with high moral standards, but like countless other people in this country, fed up with the bullying, intimidation and downright illegal behaviour of you and your colleagues .

 

You choose to profit from and seem to revel in the misery of others and yet you are surprised by the violent responses of some of your victims. If you were to operate completely within the law, I doubt you would face this problem. But then, where's the profit and where's the fun in that? :mad:

[GuidoT]

Can we refrain from personal insults please, if you are unable to do this then please do not post.

[seanamarts]

It is the way decent and moral people are treated by the likes of you that make them behave like that,

There is no way I am going to deprive my kids to pay bailiff fees, Im going to fight my case all the way,

Linzi

Good for you

I think the more people put in complaints the more these companies who employ the bailiffs will have to sit up and think about changing their policies

If we shout loud enough we will be heard

[JonCris]

I think it's already been stated that we shouldn't be too quick to judge this guy as we don't know why he's on the register. Being classed as a sex offender can cover an awful lot of ground.

Also personal feelings aside I understand your dilemma in that you don't want to punish him further by exposing him as a sex offender & I think your right to take that view. If these people find they are being continually exposed they are going to go underground.

The introduction of Megans Law in the States whilst well intentioned has produced just such an affect. Thousands of offenders are no longer visible not even to the DCA's as they avoid all activity that involves provided their personal details to anyone

Also for what reason did he leave his last address was it because he was being harassed by vigilantes we just don't know.

As you have to confront him at some time I suggest you visit his home asking the police to attend with you to ensure their is no breach of the piece.........after all they are keen enough when it comes to helping bailiffs enforce a civil debt

[jonni2bad]

Several posts have been edited and it would take me too long to explain to each user why by PM, so if your post has been edited and you really don't understand the forum rules, please send me a PM and I will explain them in greater detail.

 

Please read GuidoT's post above - it's ever so simple when you follow that.

[John McKenna]

Ok folks, I feel I should be charging you all cos I've addressed so many of your comments!

 

Anyway, here goes........

 

 

Answer me this John McKenna. how often do you lie to get to the debtors money and what actions do you take to get it if things dont 'go your way'

I don't lie to debtors, there's no need to. Those that are capable will pay. Those that can't or won't, don't. I couldn't possibly comment on what actions I take if things don't go my way as every warrant and situation is different. That's a bit like asking how long's a piece of string?

 

Do you think placing your foot in the door a right way to go about getting what you want.

It's not my style but I admit I've done it a few times in the past when a debtor I've already identified has wilfully lied to me about their identity. I don't like this action personally as it goes against the grain.

 

Do you agree with the bailiffs that use thuggish actions to get what they want.

Not in the slightest. There's no need for that behaviour but "thuggish" can be very subjective. Every bailiff is accused of being a bully and a thug when delivering verbal procedure.

 

Example:

 

"the Court orders me to remove your goods and chattles if you don't pay me"

 

"you're just being a bully and a thug you barsteward"

 

"No, that's the order of the Court. If you don't pay me I'm ordered to remove your goods"

 

"stop threatening me or I'll make make a complaint against you"

 

Do you know the rules and regs of bailiff law and do you abide by them.

I like to think I know enough yes. The judge gave me a right good grilling before granting my certificate!

 

Do you look at every debtor in a way that they are not going to pay or do you try your best to help them out as they just might be telling the truth that they are in dire straits and just cant afford your outrageous charges.

If there's one thing I know when I get to a door it's that the person has (in most cases) wilfully avoided paying the debt either because they don't care of haven't dealt with it before it's got to warrant stage. There are ways of avoiding bailiff action but many prefer to bury their heads unfortunately. Again though, I can't generalise about how I react to a debtor when every case is different. Some folk I help immeasurably, some I come down on like a ton of bricks. It all depends on my own feelings towards their ability to settle the debt they owe. Contrary to popular belief, not all debtors are in dire straits and can indeed afford to pay. Many just choose not to.

 

 

========

 

It is the way decent and moral people are treated by [bailiffs] that make them behave like that,

There is no way I am going to deprive my kids to pay bailiff fees, Im going to fight my case all the way,

Linzi

 

Maybe some people but if folk act that way when dealing with me it's because they're that way inclined in the first place. As for depriving your kids for the sake of bailiff's fees, you've been lucky you've dealt with a sympathetic Court employee. Hopefully you've learn't from this episode and will deal with it in a more timely fashion if it happens again. I've re-read your topic and quite frankly you've been less than truthful in my opinion from the off. You'll have been given more than enough time to pay the fine and by the looks of it, ignored a Court summons to answer the charge in the first place. What sort of person ignores a Court summons? Oh yes, a person on benefits with three kids, you're excused.

 

 

========

 

but like countless other people in this country, fed up with the bullying, intimidation and downright illegal behaviour of you and your colleagues .

I don't resort to violence, intimidation or bullying. Some of my "colleagues" may but I don't. If you want to deal in stereotypes though, the words you choose either mean you type from repeated personal experience or base your opinion on the "forum world" where posts you see are considered the "norm". While I accept that illegal bailiff behaviour accounts for many complaints, the vast majority of warrants are executed within the legal guidelines IMO. Like it or not, if people don't sort their debts, there's a financial penalty to pay somewhere along the line be it to bailiffs or credit card companies for example. It's a hard life for some and poo happens but people still need to take responsibility for their actions sometimes and stop blaming the bailiffs!!

 

You choose to profit from and seem to revel in the misery of others and yet you are surprised by the violent responses of some of your victims. If you were to operate completely within the law, I doubt you would face this problem. But then, where's the profit and where's the fun in that?

I don't revel in anyone's misery, I just don't think about it. Do you think the mortgage company agent thinks of the consequences to the debtor when repossessing a house? Of course not, they have a job to do.

 

I'm also not surprised by the actions of a minority of folk who decide to threaten a Court appointed agent for delivering the bad news their goods are to be removed for failing to pay an "official debt". As a bailiff who DOES act within the law, I can assure you many folk will still do their best to evade paying their dues even if they are more than capable of settling. I agree with one thing though, it is fun taking money off "won't payers" when they clearly have the means to settle before bailiff action takes place.

 

 

========

 

I think it's already been stated that we shouldn't be too quick to judge this guy as we don't know why he's on the register. Being classed as a sex offender can cover an awful lot of ground.

 

Also personal feelings aside I understand your dilemma in that you don't want to punish him further by exposing him as a sex offender & I think your right to take that view. If these people find they are being continually exposed they are going to go underground.

 

I didn't contemplate updating this thread "post action" as I thought I'd be damned if I did and damned if I don't but tonycee revived it in true damnation style.

 

Anyway, FYI, I clamped his car outside his work address and he paid me faster than a persistent offender slamming the door on a bailiff. Needless to say, I went away happy as Larry. *high fives*.

[tonycee]

[JonCris]

I have 1 question John.

 

How do you know when a debtor can pay..........but won't

[seanamarts]

Thanks for answering my questions

I understand that a bailiff has to do a job, and its nice to see that you admit that there are some bad behaved bailiffs out there. I think there are more than what you think there are though.

I think what bailiffs have to do when going to see a debtor is to have in mind that they are a 'cant pay,' in mind instead of a 'wont pay' after all in this day and age a majority of debtors are on low incomes and like you said bury their heads in the sand instead of trying to make an effort in getting their debts sorted, but you also have to take into consideration that there are many mistakes made by you clients ie computer errors etc.

It would be good to see that the bailiff company has as much details on the debtor as possible like whether they are claiming benefits or they are old and frail or disabled. Bailiffs and their companies need to lose their attitudes that they are in the right and no matter what 'YOU ARE PAYING LIKE IT OR LUMP IT' attitude and they are to stop thinking that they are way above the law, because they are not.

The majority of people on here are genuine cases and want help, I havnt read one thread where the OP has stated that they were not going to pay the debt owed. Most have asked for help because the bailiff has over charged them or stepped out of line.

Why not make a good example of what a bailiff should do by advising what they can do when a bailiff has over stepped his authority and over charged, or forced his way in when he shouldnt of had. Show people in here that there are some good bailiffs just trying to earn a living and doing a job right. Drop the attitude you have and the cockiness when replying to threads and help those who genuinely need the help, you may find that people wont be so rude back.