Moral Dilemma

[John McKenna]

This doesn't exactly come under the remit of this forum so I'll understand if a Mod wishes to lock the topic. I wish to gauge public opinion on a moral dilemma I've stumbled upon. Yes! even bailiffs have a conscience sometimes!!

 

 

I have an HMCS warrant against a person.

 

The offence mentioned on the warrant is "failing to comply with the sex offenders register".......

 

According to the issuing court, the defendant is known to carry a knife. My initial thoughts are that the defendant is a dirty rapist ****** or paedo so I've naturally got more interest in ensuring I get this warrant paid with maximum fees permitted under the HMCS contract.

 

The defendant has moved from the bail address but I've traced them to another through credit reference agencies.

 

The defendant has ignored 3 letters posted at the new address.

 

I've discovered a vehicle belonging to the defendant but I've not seen it at the property since my first letter was posted (flats with seperate garages).

 

I've now discovered the defendant's place of employment and confirmed the car is parked in front of the building during the day.

 

 

 

So, with that said, should I.....

 

1. Return the warrant to the Court as unpaid but with a forwarding address (giving the sex offender time to "move on" again).

 

2. Visit their place of work and very publicly clamp their car outside their very public place of employment forcing them to pay the fine and bailiff's fees.

 

(The second option could jeopardise the defendant's job if the nature of the fine became public knowledge in the execution of the warrant)

 

3. Something else - suggestions please.

[honey5]

1. Return the warrant to the Court as unpaid but with a forwarding address (giving the sex offender time to "move on" again).

 

2. Visit their place of work and very publicly clamp their car outside their very public place of employment forcing them to pay the fine and bailiff's fees.

 

(The second option could jeopardise the defendant's job if the nature of the fine became public knowledge in the execution of the warrant)

 

3. Something else - suggestions please.

 

sorry but in my view a sex offender deserves nothing less. infact alot more:mad:

honey x

[Bookworm]

Shouldn't you be reporting him to the police for skipping from his bail address? Surely, THAT's the most important moral thing to do, well ahead of fines?

[gizmo111]

Pass the info to the police.

[John McKenna]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the Court in question has already been informed of the new address and advised to continue with enforcement. Returning the warrant would be a cop out on my behalf as it would be reissued within a month at the new address.

[gizmo111]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the Court in question has already been informed of the new address and advised to continue with enforcement. Returning the warrant would be a cop out on my behalf as it would be reissued within a month at the new address.

 

If it's a breach of bail conditions why is he not being picked up for that.

I am not sure why you are collecting money for a sex offence crime? Is it a court fine? Wouldn't non payment mean imprisonment under criminal charges?

[tonycee]

What a sorry state this country is in.

 

Personally id shove his knife where the sun never shines. After removing the bits that would make re offending impossible.

 

This is clearly a job for the police, but all we can expect is another "fee".

 

Only you can decide how you handle it.

 

As a person, i wish you a safe result.

 

As a bailiff, ???

[John McKenna]

If it's a breach of bail conditions why is he not being picked up for that.

I am not sure why you are collecting money for a sex offence crime? Is it a court fine? Wouldn't non payment mean imprisonment under criminal charges?

 

It's not a breach of bail conditions as such. I don't have all the details but my take on it is that he's failed to sign the sex offenders register on the designated day and been fined for his trouble. I'm not collecting money as a result of the sex crime itself. For all I know, he may well have updated the register with his new address but as the register is covered by the data protection act, the court wouldn't be informed of the change unless they specifically applied for the details. It would seem I've saved them the trouble with my own investigations.

 

So, the moral dilemma is, should I clamp his car in front of his employers and risk losing the ****** his job?

[honey5]

bail addresses are a farce, my husband was on bail for 6 months and where was his bail address?????????? yeah 3 doors away

he was in constant breach of conditions to stay away but did he?????????????? NOPE

and all of this because??? they never sought to find out exactly where the address was

 

 

clamp his car, clamp his n*ts whilst youre at it, then go to the police

 

honey x

[gizmo111]

So, the moral dilemma is, should I clamp his car in front of his employers and risk losing the ****** his job? :grin:

 

Why would you treat him any different from any other person you had a warrant for, surely you must be non judgemental, if you would normally clamp a car in front of employers then do so in this case.

[tonycee]

So, the moral dilemma is, should I clamp his car in front of his employers and risk losing the ****** his job?

 

Oh please, spare me the tears.

 

If you had any REAL dilemmas with morality, you would not do the "job" in the first place.

[Filthy Monkey]

Oh please, spare me the tears.

 

If you had any REAL dilemmas with morality, you would not do the "job" in the first place.

 

 

Sorry, Tony, but I don't agree with you on that, or your earlier post, which I think was uncalled for and rather offensive. There is nothing wrong with the job; payment of outstanding debt / fines has to be enforced somehow. It's how the job is carried out that determines a person's character and it's unfair to assume that every bailiff is bad. I have had one or two bad experiences with them in the past, but I have also met one who was very pleasant and helpful and was interested in finding the best way to resolve the situation for everyone.

[robin9342]

Be very careful how you define "sex offender". Whilst the Register is undoubtably filled with rapists and paedos (who, in my opinion, should never be released anyway), there are exceptions:

Why is a Trick Cyclist on the Sex Offenders’ Register? | The Wardman Wire

 

 

I think my point is (my feelings on bailiffs aside :mad:), you should do whatever you would normally do.

 

"So, the moral dilemma is, should I clamp his car in front of his employers and risk losing the ****** his job? "

 

A bailiff with morals???

[Filthy Monkey]

Well said, Robin. I was thinking exactly the same thing, but couldn't find a decent story to back up my argument. People tend to think the worst when they see sex offender, but we have no idea what this guy has done, so removing his bits, clamping his nuts and shoving a knife where the sun don't shine may be a bit extreme. Especially if all he was trying to do was sh*g his bike!

 

If clamping his car is what would normally be done to enforce the fine, then that's what should be done, but it is not John's job to tell the persons emplyers why he is doing it.

[John McKenna]

Why would you treat him any different from any other person you had a warrant for, surely you must be non judgemental, if you would normally clamp a car in front of employers then do so in this case.

 

I've never clamped nor approached a defendant face to face at their place of work before. However, I am human and can't help think this person deserves "special attention".

 

 

Be very careful how you define "sex offender". Whilst the Register is undoubtably filled with rapists and paedos (who, in my opinion, should never be released anyway), there are exceptions:

Why is a Trick Cyclist on the Sex Offenders’ Register? | The Wardman Wire

 

Agreed and probably the reason why it's a moral dilemma in the first place. While I wouldn't normally think of enforcing at a person's place of work, my preconceived impression of this defendant is that they deserve what's coming to them. While I admit I've already judged this person in my own mind based on the offence cited, the Court employee cemented that thought rightly or wrongly by mentioning the defandant is known to carry a knife.

 

 

but it is not John's job to tell the persons emplyers why he is doing it.

If I enforce the warrant, I'd be professional while greeting the defendant and providing verbal precedure but that little devil sat on my shoulder would be yelling SPEAK LOUDER BOY, SPEAK LOUDER!!

 

If I'm right and he's a dirty filthy rapist ****** then surely he needs his nuts clenching in a firm manner as honey5 suggests?

 

If I'm right about him being a dirty filthy ****** (after further enquiries) and I clamp his car, how long do I give him to pay before I call a tow truck? I would normally give 30 minutes to arrange payment after clamping so is 15 minutes about right for this pillar of society?

[gizmo111]

I think that you have to treat this person no different than you would any other client (for want of a better word). It is unfair, judgemental and unprofessional to do any different without the full facts, and even ifyou had the full facts it is not your role to enforce anything other than what you are employed to do.

 

If you feel uncomfortable dealing with this person for moral reasons then hand it back to your employer.

[Filthy Monkey]

Well said, Giz. Couldn't agree more.

[tonycee]

Sorry, Tony, but I don't agree with you on that, or your earlier post, which I think was uncalled for and rather offensive. There is nothing wrong with the job; payment of outstanding debt / fines has to be enforced somehow. It's how the job is carried out that determines a person's character and it's unfair to assume that every bailiff is bad. I have had one or two bad experiences with them in the past, but I have also met one who was very pleasant and helpful and was interested in finding the best way to resolve the situation for everyone.

 

Yes fines/debts have to be paid, but who should collect ?

 

Answer me this.,

 

If capital punishment was re introduced, would you be happy pulling the leaver ?

 

Yes, no scruples.

 

No, then whats the difference between that and consciously choosing to be the exocutioner on a smaller scale.

 

None in my opinion, just different levels of judgement.

[John McKenna]

Thanks for your comments gizmo111 although it seems to have raised another dilemma. It's now quite clear my original dilemma is now muddied with an ethical dilemma. If proved to be a ******, do I act in an ethical way and return the warrant because executing may jeopardise his employment or do I do the right thing morally and make him pay for his crimes?

[robin9342]

I've never clamped nor approached a defendant face to face at their place of work before. However, I am human and can't help think this person deserves "special attention". If its not your normal practice, then why now? You don't know the exact nature of this persons offence and you really shouldn't jump to conclusions (see my previous post)

 

 

 

 

Agreed and probably the reason why it's a moral dilemma in the first place. While I wouldn't normally think of enforcing at a person's place of work, my preconceived impression of this defendant is that they deserve what's coming to them. While I admit I've already judged this person in my own mind based on the offence cited, the Court employee cemented that thought rightly or wrongly by mentioning the defandant is known to carry a knife. If you knew for certain that this person is a rapist or paedo, then yes he does deserve what's coming. However, you DON'T know, you just have a preconceived impression. My preconceived impression of bailiffs can't be repeated here, but you might be a nice person!

 

 

 

If I enforce the warrant, I'd be professional while greeting the defendant and providing verbal precedure but that little devil sat on my shoulder would be yelling SPEAK LOUDER BOY, SPEAK LOUDER!!

 

If I'm right and he's a dirty filthy rapist ****** then surely he needs his nuts clenching in a firm manner as honey5 suggests?

 

If I'm right about him being a dirty filthy ****** (after further enquiries) I imagine you need to be very careful here and I clamp his car, how long do I give him to pay before I call a tow truck? I would normally give 30 minutes to arrange payment after clamping so is 15 minutes about right for this pillar of society? And IF YOU'RE WRONG??? You risk losing someone his livelihood and quite possibly ruining his life!

 

I know this is an emotive subject. I detest rapists and paedos. They make me feel sick and I think shooting is too good for them. However I am mindful about what can happen to someone who is falsely accused. Unless you are ABSOLUTELY certain of the facts, you should treat this person the same as you would any other.

[tonycee]

Just one final question before i leave you all to it.

 

Do you have a daughter who has been subjected to a sexual assault ?

 

Would you want to cut somebodies nuts off if they had ruined your life's (yes that's plural)

 

England 2008.

 

Lets fine them instead.

 

Goodnight.

 

Oh and goodnight from [edit], its 4 years and she still cant sleep properly, but never mind, the big bad bailiffs are going to charge maximum fees.

 

PFFFFFFTTTTT

[gizmo111]

Thanks for your comments gizmo111 although it seems to have raised another dilemma. It's now quite clear my original dilemma is now muddied with an ethical dilemma. If proved to be a ******, do I act in an ethical way and return the warrant because executing may jeopardise his employment or do I do the right thing morally and make him pay for his crimes?

 

But in your role John, you must work on the information you have and not second guess. Suppose you go to a house where the children seem unhappy do you assume child abuse is happening?

 

Just one final question before i leave you all to it.

 

Do you have a daughter who has been subjected to a sexual assault ?

 

No and I hope I never will

 

Would you want to cut somebodies nuts off if they had ruined your life's (yes that's plural)

 

 

Maximum pain if they had hurt my girls

 

England 2008.

 

Lets fine them instead.

 

Goodnight.

 

Oh and goodnight from [edit], its 4 years and she still cant sleep properly, but never mind, the big bad bailiffs are going to charge maximum fees.

 

PFFFFFFTTTTT

 

Tony Pm or e-mail if you want to chat [email protected]

 

 

Take care

[tonycee]

Thanks.

 

We cope, we have to.

 

We have no problem here, we just have an opinion. Obviously one thats not reciprocated.

 

John Mckenna, i have no problem with you, never have, just what you represent and why.

 

I strongly believe in justice, i just dont agree with the way that its enforced.

 

Night all.

[Filthy Monkey]

Tony, I'm glad to say that I dont have a daughter who has suffered in this way, but I do have a close relative who was wrongly convicted and spent four years in prison before being let out when new DNA evidence came to light. Eight years later and he still has nightmares about being in prison. A promising career in the city was ruined, he lost his wife, his friends, four years of his childrens' lives and his dignity. He tried to take his life twice in prison and once after he was released. Somebody else was convicted on the strength of the DNA evidence, but not before he had committed a number of serious crimes.

 

For the record, I agree with you that the law is this country is an ass and completely disagree with the way criminals are given a slap on the wrist for some serious offences.

 

Anyway, that aside, what I am trying to say is that I appreciate that we all have different ideas fashioned from our own emotional experience, but without the full facts we cannot make such rash judgements.

 

Right, enough nonsense from me. I'm off to bed. G'night, everyone

[gizmo111]

Thanks.

 

We cope, we have to.

 

We have no problem here, we just have an opinion. Obviously one thats not reciprocated.

 

John Mckenna, i have no problem with you, never have, just what you represent and why.

 

I strongly believe in justice, i just dont agree with the way that its enforced.

 

Night all.

 

I have just edited my post because I had it around the wrong way.

 

Take care tony xx

 

Tony, I'm glad to say that I dont have a daughter who has suffered in this way, but I do have a close relative who was wrongly convicted and spent four years in prison before being let out when new DNA evidence came to light. Eight years later and he still has nightmares about being in prison. A promising career in the city was ruined, he lost his wife, his friends, four years of his childrens' lives and his dignity. He tried to take his life twice in prison and once after he was released. Somebody else was convicted on the strength of the DNA evidence, but not before he had committed a number of serious crimes.

 

For the record, I agree with you that the law is this country is an ass and completely disagree with the way criminals are given a slap on the wrist for some serious offences.

 

Anyway, that aside, what I am trying to say is that I appreciate that we all have different ideas fashioned from our own emotional experience, but without the full facts we cannot make such rash judgements.

 

Absolutely, with the technology we have now, every conviction should be 100% sure, and I just hope soon it will be and justice will dished out accordingly.