Constructive Dismissal Claim, Ill advise from Union ..V frustrated :-(

[Miss_Dior]

Hi Thanks for looking at my thread...Im not sure of the response Ill get so I shall keep it short.

 

I was bullied at work by my Manager and when it became extreme I filed a grievance, naturally the business (MAJOR PLAYER) did not find in my favour, I then raised a Constructive Dismissal Grievance as the business re structured whilst I was off sick and excluded me from the chart. I left the company in June 07 however we have only JUST finished completing the grievance procedure, once again as expected they have covered their tracks

 

I have now applied to the ET for CD, however the employer is claiming the case out of time. Ive had UNION advise all along but the union failed to advise me to submit to the ET whilst the grievance was being heard.

 

Im gutted as potentially the company now get away with protecting a bully, managing someone out of the business and believe me I have STRONG evidence and statements from other victims of this tyrant.

 

Anyone here who can help?

 

XXX

[Allwood]

I am beginning to regard joining a union as they are so lack a daisy with advice and possibly not giving the services that you are paying for which is bad news for employees as they are the only ones that you can rely on for good advice but I am having trouble just getting a meeting with one of them each time I am being fobbed off which is not good enough. The reasons I have had so far is going on holiday too much work for them to do, this makes me wonder who are they working for the employer or the employee.

[colour-me-happy]

As far as I know the IT "clock" starts ticking when all other avenues have been exhausted, ie grievance procedures etc.

 

I would call your local office for IT's and ask them rather than take the word of your ex employer

[Miss_Dior]

Well...my former employer raised this time thing with ACAS...who then in turn to my Union Rep...who then asked the union solicitors who confirmed it was correct.

 

Im no employment law expect...should my union rep not have known about the time limits?

 

I know my previous employer knew...they played me, I had told them I was waiting for the outcome of the appeal meeting before proceding to ET (this was with the rep present) anyway they wrote a letter to me dated 2nd December telling me they did not uphold my claim and that I had exhausted the grievance procedure, they did NOT send the letter until 4th Jan, dated 4th Jan. I only became aware of this when I went back into an email they had sent me beginning of Dec, I had opened the FIRST attachment as it was something I'd requested, and overlooked the second. The second was sent by them in ERROR.

 

It proves to me that they deliberatly delayed formally notifying me of the outcome til Jan...knowing I would submit to and ET and they would try to get it thrown out on time:mad:

 

It just feels like an employer can bully, intimidate and cover their tracks..

 

I hear you about the Unions as well....you seek comfort from the Union but their so damn complicated and so it seems in my case damn incompetent...I may now not be able to pursue my former employer which leaves me where???

 

Hows things with you??

[diskmandave]

This isn't timed out at all.

 

At the end of the grievance procedure you have 3 months to file at ET.

 

How can you file an ET whilst a grievance is ongoing, and at appeal stage... You can't because you wouldn't have a decision to file against!

 

You can present all their sly tricks too. Here's the ET1 form for you to print and fill in;

http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/pdfs/ET1_Claim_Form.pdf

 

Please call ACAS yourself, I think you've had bad advise throughout this.

 

Acas - Home

HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47

 

Best wishes, Dave (Senior Shop Steward - GMB Union).

[Miss_Dior]

This isn't timed out at all.

 

At the end of the grievance procedure you have 3 months to file at ET.

 

How can you file an ET whilst a grievance is ongoing, and at appeal stage... You can't because you wouldn't have a decision to file !

 

Please call ACAS yourself, I think you've had bad advise throughout this.

 

Acas - Home

HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47

 

Best wishes, Dave (Senior Shop Steward).

 

May I call you Dave?

 

Dave

 

 

You have NO idea how much this would mean to me, I would be overjoyed I just thought if Acas and The Union and the Solicitors were all in agreement it must be right, but YES, I should absolutely MAKE THAT CALL myself. Thats what I thought, Why would I submit a claim to the ET before I'd had the outcome...bare in mind I was trying to be positive of a satisfactory outcome. Their arguement is I left their employment in June, the usual time limit is 3 months, this was mutually extended, and the appeal hearing itself wasnt until November.

 

 

Ill make that call tomorrow and post back the outcome...thanks so much for responding

[diskmandave]

and the appeal hearing itself wasnt until November.

Then you would have 3 months from the date of the outcome letter of the appeal meeting, or if you can prove they delayed sending it by having the stamped/franked envelope or email headers, 3 months from that date.

 

I really think you should download and print that form and get it in ASAP.

 

It's best to call the ACAS number as close to 9am as possible to stand a chance of getting through, it's extremely busy, and you may have to persevere.

 

Regards, Dave.

[Miss_Dior]

It's best to call the ACAS number as close to 9am as possible to stand a chance of getting through, it's extremely busy, and you may have to persevere.

 

Regards, Dave.

 

 

I absolutely shall...Im on the 7.30am train to London so I will be bright eyed and bushy tailed

[Weird Al Yankovic]

This isn't timed out at all.

 

At the end of the grievance procedure you have 3 months to file at ET.

 

How can you file an ET whilst a grievance is ongoing, and at appeal stage... You can't because you wouldn't have a decision to file against!

 

You can present all their sly tricks too. Here's the ET1 form for you to print and fill in;

http://www.employmenttribunals.gov.uk/pdfs/ET1_Claim_Form.pdf

 

Please call ACAS yourself, I think you've had bad advise throughout this.

 

Acas - Home

HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47

 

Best wishes, Dave (Senior Shop Steward - GMB Union).

 

 

I disagree and would have thought the OP's complaints are out of time.

 

It appears the OP was dismissed in June 07.

 

Prior to this the OP claims she was bullied and raised a grievance which was not upheld. The exact date of this is not given but it was clearly before June 07.

 

Time limits are only extended to six months, from three months, and only then if the matter complained about was raised as a greivance within the original three month limit of the matter/s complained about.

 

This would mean the last incident of bullying arised probably sometime before June 07 and the dismissal was June 07.

 

These dates are clearly now more than three/six months.

 

An internal grievance procedure, and the length of it, cannot take precedence over statutory time limits with an ET.

 

By suggesting that a complainant has three months from the end of the grievance procedure to submit an ET is wrong.

 

All the ET demands is that a grievance was submitted at least 28 days before presenting to an ET. It does not demand that a grievance has to be concluded.

 

Firms drag their heels for this very reason and the OP has been a victim of it. As have I.

 

However, the OP may be able to argue that her union's advice to her was incorrect about time limits but I wouldn't hold too much hope. I too was represented by a union but the ET still time barred my claims-and just by 5 days.

 

ET's are very strict and unforgiving.

[Miss_Dior]

I disagree and would have thought the OP's complaints are out of time.

 

It appears the OP was dismissed in June 07.

 

Prior to this the OP claims she was bullied and raised a grievance which was not upheld. The exact date of this is not given but it was clearly before June 07.

 

Time limits are only extended to six months, from three months, and only then if the matter complained about was raised as a greivance within the original three month limit of the matter/s complained about.

 

This would mean the last incident of bullying arised probably sometime before June 07 and the dismissal was June 07.

 

These dates are clearly now more than three/six months.

 

An internal grievance procedure, and the length of it, cannot take precedence over statutory time limits with an ET.

 

By suggesting that a complainant has three months from the end of the grievance procedure to submit an ET is wrong.

 

All the ET demands is that a grievance was submitted at least 28 days before presenting to an ET. It does not demand that a grievance has to be concluded.

 

Firms drag their heels for this very reason and the OP has been a victim of it. As have I.

 

However, the OP may be able to argue that her union's advice to her was incorrect about time limits but I wouldn't hold too much hope. I too was represented by a union but the ET still time barred my claims-and just by 5 days.

 

ET's are very strict and unforgiving.

 

 

Hello and thank you for your response.

 

To confirm certain points, I resigned from the business in June 2007, the grievance against the Manager however did not conclude until LATE July, the Grievance against the business for potential constructive dismissal was raised in May 07 but only concluded in Jan 08.

 

I guess this is where my Union are getting confused. I am frustrated obviously...unfortunatly I was unable to make contact with ACAS today but will try again tomorrow.

 

The ET have allocated a case number and a provisional hearing...it is in the hearing that I have been made aware that my former employer will try to get my claim struck out on time.

 

:(

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Hello and thank you for your response.

 

To confirm certain points, I resigned from the business in June 2007, the grievance against the Manager however did not conclude until LATE July, the Grievance against the business for potential constructive dismissal was raised in May 07 but only concluded in Jan 08.

 

I guess this is where my Union are getting confused. I am frustrated obviously...unfortunatly I was unable to make contact with ACAS today but will try again tomorrow.

 

The ET have allocated a case number and a provisional hearing...it is in the hearing that I have been made aware that my former employer will try to get my claim struck out on time.

 

:(

 

Ok, that's clearer but it still appears to be out of time.

 

Do you mean your provisional hearing is actually a pre-hearing review? This is held to decide, amongst others, if a claim is time barred.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter when an internal grievance is concluded in respect to making a claim to an ET. In fact, it doesn't even need to be concluded.

 

The issue an ET wants to determine is if you had actually instigated a grievance in the first place to be able to bring a claim.

 

You did. However, it is now too long a period of time to bring a claim.

 

You have to focus on when you raised your grievances, not on when they concluded. And then add on 3/6 months to those important dates for your time limit.

 

(ie May 07 gave you until November 07)

 

Sorry. But it is worthwhile mentioning bad advice from the union and also the fact you were sick too.

 

But an ET usually ignores such things.

[Miss_Dior]

Ok, that's clearer but it still appears to be out of time.

 

Do you mean your provisional hearing is actually a pre-hearing review? This is held to decide, amongst others, if a claim is time barred.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter when an internal grievance is concluded in respect to making a claim to an ET. In fact, it doesn't even need to be concluded.

 

The issue an ET wants to determine is if you had actually instigated a grievance in the first place to be able to bring a claim.

 

You did. However, it is now too long a period of time to bring a claim.

 

You have to focus on when you raised your grievances, not on when they concluded. And then add on 3/6 months to those important dates for your time limit.

 

(ie May 07 gave you until November 07)

 

Sorry. But it is worthwhile mentioning bad advice from the union and also the fact you were sick too.

 

But an ET usually ignores such things.

 

 

:( Oh no...this is terrible news...I just dont understand why a Union Rep would not know this...

 

Is there any other avenues I can go down? Is this limited to a ET??

[diskmandave]

the Grievance against the business for potential constructive dismissal was raised in May 07 but only concluded in Jan 08.

The last directly related cause of action was Jan 08.

 

That gives until April 08 to raise an ET claim.

[Miss_Dior]

well....I shall be onto ACAS as you advised at 9am prompt...I was on the train this morning and the reception was just terrible...Ill update then and THANK YOU

[Weird Al Yankovic]

The last directly related cause of action was Jan 08.

 

That gives until April 08 to raise an ET claim.

 

Afraid not.

 

Jan 08 is when a grievance relating to a dismissal was finally concluded by her ex-employers. This grievance was submitted in May 07.

 

That makes any ET claim for unfair dismissal as out of time by some three months.

 

ET's don't change time limits just for employers to conclude a grievance as and when they like.

 

That is the whole point of time limits.

 

In any case, ACAS, her union and her solicitor have already told her this. I also agree with them.

[GlasweJen]

I think Al is right. I was told by ACAS to submit ET1 and state that the grievance procedure is still being carried out. This was to stop my claim going out of time.

[Miss_Dior]

Afraid not.

 

Jan 08 is when a grievance relating to a dismissal was finally concluded by her ex-employers. This grievance was submitted in May 07.

 

That makes any ET claim for unfair dismissal as out of time by some three months.

 

ET's don't change time limits just for employers to conclude a grievance as and when they like.

 

That is the whole point of time limits.

 

In any case, ACAS, her union and her solicitor have already told her this. I also agree with them.

 

 

it seems your right.... I was going along with the advice from my union rep during a stressful time with my previous employer and also the death of my Father, I took my unions advice as concrete, why would I after all have cause to question their advice....where do I stand now? whats the process of a formal complaint to the Union?

[inline66]

Some thoughts on your case

1. If you are time barred on the claim to the ET then have you considered a civil court remedy? I believe time limits are different. If you are in the Union you could ask them for legal assistance in the civil court.

2. The bereavement you experienced could be a reason to extend the 6 month time limit at the ET. I believe it would depend on other things such as whether you were taking care of your other affairs at the time such as applying for a new job or taking up a new job. If you were not taking care of your other affairs then this would be a reason to extend the 6 month limit.

 

How did your ET provisional hearing go

[Miss_Dior]

Im soo sorry for not replying sooner, you must think Im terribly rude, I only just located the email alert in my spam filter.

 

In response to your points.

 

1, I am meeting with a solicitor on Thursday morning along with my union rep with a view to looking at a civil breach of contract claim and will update you once Ive had the meeting.

 

The preliminary hearing is booked for 15th May and the Union have now dropped me because they claim there is a potential claim for me to take legal action against them on the grounds of negligence therefore there is a conflict of interestm they have arranged said appointment for me as per above to try to remedy the situation. They have said they simply cannot go along to the prelim hearing at the ET as they will have to answer very uncomfortable questions about time limits that they SHOULD have known:-x

 

2, During the time period of my fathers death I was absent from work and soley caring for him, after he passed away I was then ill with tonsilitis and off work. This takes out a good siz week period of time. BUT I have been advised this will be irrelevent as the UNION SHOULD have submitted the ET1 on my behalf.

 

 

ET hearing on 15th May.

 

Thanks for replying and once again sorry for the delay

[inline66]

Unfortunetely the advice of Unions seems consistantly to fall below what could be reasonably expected. Many people post on this forum about poor Union representation.

 

The very first thing that anybody should consider in regard to bringing a case to an ET concerning dismissal and grievances is time limits.

 

If you think it would benefit, then you may wish to ask the tribunal chairman to compel the Union representative to attend and/or disclose his notes.

 

I hope your preliminary hearing goes well.