Cabot Test Case!

[Brent-London]

This thread seems to have gone quiet - any update?

[Rhia]

It never got there! The Irish agreement made them discontinue.

[meerkatsmimm]

Hi Rhia,

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the 'irish agreement' please?

 

Thanks,

 

meerkat x

[Rhia]

This was one of a number of CAG cases involving MBNA and Cabot. When they were pushed to disclose the original deed of assignment under court proceedings it turned out the debts had been assigned offshore via MBNA in Dublin and were subject to Irish law and not UK.

 

Cabot tried to say it was an isolated mistake but when other cases involving CAGers were brought in as evidence their case became very shaky indeed and they backed off.

 

It seems they don't pay stamp duty/VAT this way - that only becomes payable once they collect on the debt.

 

MBNA has 'previous' for VAT avoidance and were involved in an infamous case with the VAT man which went all the way to the High Court and (I think) the Lords and they lost, costing them millions.

 

Needless to say the VAT man was informed of the Irish agreements.

[meerkatsmimm]

WOW Rhia,

 

Thats pretty shocking.

 

Would any of this be because they are able to write the debt off in the UK and claim the tax break, but then at the same time shuffle the ownership of the debt through their Irish offices to enable them to continue to attempt collection as normal?

 

Im probably way off the mark, just a theory.

 

Is there any way for us to know if a NOA has been done outside of the UK, would this be clear on any copy of a NOA we request, or would it need to be done through the courts?

 

Brilliant stuff!

 

meerkat x

[Rhia]

Hi MKM...

 

This has a whole lot to do with securitisation and the US fims like MBNA and Cap1 virtually invented the whole sorry mess.

 

Really they create money out of thin air don't they by offering youa credit card at high rates of interest. It doesn't take long before the capital you have borrowed has been paid back and it's just interest on interest.

 

However this is then securitised to a hedge fund or offshore and so the OC has now got rid of the liability for your debt and acts as the handling agent. The fun begins when you get into difficulties.

 

Instead of offering any real help they just ambush you with template letters and non-stop phone calls whilst bumping up the interest under what they call a universal default (the computer says you're in difficulties and likely to default so they raise the interest rate!!!???).

 

There's more to this than just seeming incompetence as they are boosting the outstanding debt so that when they sell it off to a DCA such as Cabot this inflated "loss" is then written off to tax (and possibly indemnity insurance).

 

Cabot then buys at as little as 10pence in the £ and attempts to recoup the lot AND add their own unsubstantiated interest charges to boot. If they assign offshore (and it's by no means clear that they all are but my guess is likely) then they don't pay VAT on the bundle of debts they have bought - only when they recoup the debt. This saves them a packet as many debts must be irrecoverable and they wouldn't want to have to pay VAT on something worthless.

 

The whole thing is one international Ponzi scheme aimed at making huge fortunes on the backs of ordinary folk whilst paying as little tax as possible.

 

My advice to anyone is try and avoid borrowing as much as possible - most of us need mortgages to buy a house but avoid anything else if you can or at least check the small print and make sure it's a decent rate of interest. And just don't touch credit cards with a ten foot barge pole.

 

I am speaking from experience here.

BTW you need to request the Deed of Assignment NOT the NoA. The latter is just a letter saying it has been assigned and is usually issued in the UK but I doubt it would matter where it was sent from (though may well be wrong).

 

Try a part 36.14 request for a copy. Cabot will squeal and squeal and squeal!

Edited August 24, 2009 by Rhia

[vint1954]

Hi MKM...

 

This has a whole lot to do with securitisation and the US fims like MBNA and Cap1 virtually invented the whole sorry mess.

 

Really they create money out of thin air don't they by offering youa credit card at high rates of interest. It doesn't take long before the capital you have borrowed has been paid back and it's just interest on interest.

 

However this is then securitised to a hedge fund or offshore and so the OC has now got rid of the liability for your debt and acts as the handling agent. The fun begins when you get into difficulties.

 

Instead of offering any real help they just ambush you with template letters and non-stop phone calls whilst bumping up the interest under what they call a universal default (the computer says you're in difficulties and likely to default so they raise the interest rate!!!???).

 

There's more to this than just seeming incompetence as they are boosting the outstanding debt so that when they sell it off to a DCA such as Cabot this inflated "loss" is then written off to tax (and possibly indemnity insurance).

 

Cabot then buys at as little as 10pence in the £ and attempts to recoup the lot AND add their own unsubstantiated interest charges to boot. If they assign offshore (and it's by no means clear that they all are but my guess is likely) then they don't pay VAT on the bundle of debts they have bought - only when they recoup the debt. This saves them a package as many debts must be irrecoverable and they wouldn't want to have to pay VAT on something worthless.

 

The whole thing is one international Ponzi scheme aimed at making huge fortunes on the backs of ordinary folk whilst paying as little tax as possible.

 

My advice to anyone is try and avoid borrowing as much as possible - most of us need mortgages to buy a house but avoid anything else if you can or at least check the small print and make sure it's a decent rate of interest. And just don't touch credit cards with a ten foot barge pole.

 

I am speaking from experience here.

BTW you need to request the Deed of Assignment NOT the NoA. The latter is just a letter saying it has been assigned and is usually issued in the UK but I doubt it would matter where it was sent from (though may well be wrong).

 

Try a part 36.14 request for a copy. Cabot will squeal and squeal and squeal!

If your debt happens to be securitised, then presumably MBNA for arguments sake, no longer own the debt? How could they then legally persue you for any debt, or indeed sell it on, if they are only administering, especially if the new owner is overseas.

[42man]

Good work Rhia and thanks for the update, this could open up a can of worms....and all those MBNA debts could be scuppered !!!

[andrew1]

Just to add to this Deed of Assignment Rhia mentions, also 'aquired' were copies of the Sales agreements between these banks and Cabot which also highlighted the terms and conditions under which the debts were assigned.

 

All part of the Cabot Fan Club investigation at the time

[Rhia]

Hello Andrew1 - good to see the Cabot Fan Club is on the ball as always!

 

Yes and we still have that copy - just to clarify Andrew1 refers to it as a Sales Agreement which it is. It is also known as the Deed of Assignment.

 

Yep 42 man - this is a very complicated area but how can any of these banks and credit card companies sue for debts they have securitised? I know it's been discussed elsewhere on CAG but if we can shed any light on it here it would be very useful.

 

And here's me thinking this little old thread was dead!

[Stephan56]

In response to the issue re suing when debts have been securitised, what usually happens is that pool of "assets" (credit card debt) is packaged up and sold to oth investors. There is usally some kind og "trust arrangement" which holds the assets for the underlying buyers. The original bank then plays an ongoing role as processor and agent for the trust (taking payments, suing on behalf of the trust if default, playing the role of a "collector" of debts).

 

They have, by securitisation, given up all the risk and just earn fees. Good for them, until it all goes wrong!

 

In the US, in the context of mortgage debt, when banks (having sold a debt as part of a secuirisation) turn up in court to throw someone out fo their house, judges are taking a "harder line" and asking to see (i) original mortge doucmentation andn (ii) full disclsure of the current beneficial owners.

 

As so much of this "stuff" has been repackeaged and sold on (often numerous tmes) the original documentation may not be found and the bank has no idea as to the final owner.

 

Judges have basically told them to go away until they come back with the correct documentation.

 

I think the originating bank or Credt Card company CAN sue to enforce a debt they do not own (if acting as agent for the underlying owner) but en the "games they have played" as highlighted by this thread, and their poor documentation, there is a strong case to be made for fighting them every step of the way and "putting them to their proof" which I doubt in most/any cases they can meet.

[Rhia]

I know there was an infamous case in the US a year or so ago when about 12 houses came before this particular court and as no-one could prove who actually now owned them due to dicing and slicing - the judge threw the case out. No idea what happened next.

 

I know this is head banging stuff (and for those reasons most fight shy of getting involved) but I think the time has come for us all to start taking these companies apart with regard to these dark arts.

 

The OC in this case was MBNA and I attempted to get the Sales Agreement/Deed of Assignment from them and never succeeded. However after a great barrister who counted that I had made something like 40 requests via Part 18, SAR any damned way I could - we did eventually get the document.

[tifo]

If your debt happens to be securitised, then presumably MBNA for arguments sake, no longer own the debt? How could they then legally persue you for any debt, or indeed sell it on, if they are only administering, especially if the new owner is overseas.

 

In the UK the bank still seems to own 'legal' title and only sells the 'beneficial' interest in the debt, then acts as administrator to collect money on behalf of the owner of the beneficial interest. The legal title is only transferred to the beneficial owner when/if the bank goes belly up. There is such a clause in many securitisation prospectuses.

 

That's why UK banks can securitise a mortgage/debt and still have their name at the Land Registry and/or sue the borrower in their own name.

 

In the US everything is sold and there didn't seem to be any separation of legal and beneficial interest in the debt. That's why they ask "show us the note" because the new owner owns legal and beneficial title.

[ScarletPimpernel]

 

In the US everything is sold and there didn't seem to be any separation of legal and beneficial interest in the debt. That's why they ask "show us the note" because the new owner owns legal and beneficial title.

 

 

Hence why Amex wriggle and writhe to avoid answering any questions about securitization - because they do it all in the US.

[angel_1]

Rhia and all

 

what a fab thread and the points raised are beginning to sink in

 

my question if i may, i note that you asked many times for the Deed of Assignment, could i ask Mbna for it as the original creditor if i send another SARS request? who has sold it so they tell me to 1st credit who now going to petition for my bankruptcy so they tell me in a letter past couple of weeks ago

 

I would have my SARS request as a written request to help me fight the real threat of bankruptcy

 

huge thanks angel x

[Rhia]

OK now MBNA were also SAR'd re this deed of assignment or sales agreement and they never ever supplied it and stated they didn't have to as it was senstive information (my ass)

 

At the time we were unaware of a way of getting this as well as requesting in a SAR (and by all means request it via data protection laws). You can use the Part 31.14 request under the Court Protocol Rules. Take a look in Legal Issues in the DCA section and surfaceagentx20 has created a sticky:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html

 

This shows you how to take action to get information they don't wish to reveal. If they don't compy it does mean you taking out an injunction but it should do the trick.

 

Make sure re the SAR that you ask specifically for it. Also if you are already in court proceedings you can ask for this info under a Part18 application.

 

If they don't suppy the info under the SAR within 40 days report them to the Information Commissioner and again specify exactly what you want from MBNA.

 

Good luck!

[citizenB]

Thanks for updating this Rhia.. I will link MBNA victims to it

[Gazza112]

Subbing With Interest

[NailPost]

Did MBNA run the financial arm of M&S for a while out of Chester - or am I thinking of someone else?

[cashins]

subbing

[Rhia]

Not sure if they ran the M&S arm but they are behind many loyalty cards and most of the footie clubs credit cards - Man U, Liverpool etc.

 

Also if you are stopped by charity workers asking you to sign up to a WWF (among others) credit card it is usually MBNA. I went off on one at a railway station when I was stopped and asked if I would like one. When I asked who was behind it and told them what I thought they said but they do goive to charity.

Words fail me! They give a bit to charidee, offset it against tax and that salves their conscience at doubling interest rates, selling off to DCAs at the drop of a hat and highy dubious collection practices. Well that's all right then.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Rhia

[Rhia]

I was reading today that as it is 09/09/09 it is the end of the world...well not where I am but it may be in some places:

Credit Today online

[cashins]

Maynard said the model the company uses to forecast collections on its portfolios is "aggressive" and a period of lower cash collections dramatically affects the value attributed to assets. "The assets have not gone away, we still have them. They are just generating slightly less cash than expected. The value will go back up and we will get a much-needed boost [to the figures] in the next year or two," he said.

 

Well, the values could go back up but not to the values that their 'aggressive forecasting' suggested.

 

Oh dear.

 

David

[bongo boy]

oh dear, now that is a pity.. the dripping sound i can hear must be my heart bleeding.... poor souls.????

[Josie8]

Hi MKM...

 

This has a whole lot to do with securitisation and the US fims like MBNA and Cap1 virtually invented the whole sorry mess.

 

Really they create money out of thin air don't they by offering youa credit card at high rates of interest. It doesn't take long before the capital you have borrowed has been paid back and it's just interest on interest.

 

However this is then securitised to a hedge fund or offshore and so the OC has now got rid of the liability for your debt and acts as the handling agent. The fun begins when you get into difficulties.

 

Instead of offering any real help they just ambush you with template letters and non-stop phone calls whilst bumping up the interest under what they call a universal default (the computer says you're in difficulties and likely to default so they raise the interest rate!!!???).

 

There's more to this than just seeming incompetence as they are boosting the outstanding debt so that when they sell it off to a DCA such as Cabot this inflated "loss" is then written off to tax (and possibly indemnity insurance).

 

Cabot then buys at as little as 10pence in the £ and attempts to recoup the lot AND add their own unsubstantiated interest charges to boot. If they assign offshore (and it's by no means clear that they all are but my guess is likely) then they don't pay VAT on the bundle of debts they have bought - only when they recoup the debt. This saves them a packet as many debts must be irrecoverable and they wouldn't want to have to pay VAT on something worthless.

 

The whole thing is one international Ponzi scheme aimed at making huge fortunes on the backs of ordinary folk whilst paying as little tax as possible.

 

My advice to anyone is try and avoid borrowing as much as possible - most of us need mortgages to buy a house but avoid anything else if you can or at least check the small print and make sure it's a decent rate of interest. And just don't touch credit cards with a ten foot barge pole.

 

I am speaking from experience here.

BTW you need to request the Deed of Assignment NOT the NoA. The latter is just a letter saying it has been assigned and is usually issued in the UK but I doubt it would matter where it was sent from (though may well be wrong).

 

Try a part 36.14 request for a copy. Cabot will squeal and squeal and squeal!

 

 

CPR 36.14?