This letter arrived to my address today, and as it was the right surname, I didn't pay attention further and opened it. When I saw it was apparently from Council Tax, I thought "now what?" and then on reading further, the penny dropped that it wasn't addressed to us nor had anything to do with us at all. Fishing expedition? Oh yes, I think so... Anyway... I was just going to send the letter back with a terse "you got the wrong person, naff off", but out of curiosity, I examined said letter a bit closer, and then decided to scan it for your perusal. You see, there are a few things bothering me here; the fishing expedition I can handle, BUT it seems to me that these people are misrepresenting themselves and lying to the person: 1st of all, it says they are "authorised to recover council tax by the council". Says who? Where is their authority? Then it says a liability order was granted... but no LO number is quoted, not on this page nor any other and in fact in the next page there is a blank next to the "court hearing" (this isn't me deleting it, there was nothing there). Then there is the "you may be liable for a fine of up to £1000...". Again, says who? They're not bailiffs, they're not the council, is is an offence to refuse to give perfect strangers all your financial information on the basis of "we say so" and a badly photocopied official council logo? Finally, the last page against refers to the Liability Order and the duty to supply the information... but carefully doesn't specify to whom said info needs be supplied. In short, it all sounds very fishy. I would even have discarded at a [problem] full stop, but the company's own website (ok, no proof of anything as such, I know) seems to show them as semi-legitimate "service providers" to a few local authorities. I don't know, I smell a rat, RLP or PPC style... people pretendign to have more authority than they really do, skirting around the truth to try and bully people into paying without questioning... What do you guys think?

Which corporations? Take your pick. Even "real" charities make big bucks, you should see the wages the top executives at Oxfam etc, make... They take the saying "charity begins at home" very seriously indeed.

You are more forgiving than I am then. When they first came to power, I too thought they were merely inept. Over the last 2 1/2 years, I have changed my mind. There is malice aforethought, and plenty of it. There is a basic hatred of the poor, the under-privileged, anyone who's not a member of their wealthy club. Your Bertrand Russell on your signature is spot on. We only serve a purpose as long as we can serve them, and those who can't do so can die, the sooner the better as far as they're concerned. The perfect storm IDS is creating doesn't happen by mistake. It's terrifying. I am on groups on Facebook where people have to stay in their bed all day with blankets and jumpers on because that's the only way they can stay warm. This disabled chap was saying yesterday that he couldn't put his thermostat higher than 10 C or it would eat up all he had left. TEN degrees Celsius, folks! I'm in talk with a lady who had to buy her husband a jumper from the charity shop so now can't afford to get herself one for herself. I could give you thousands more examples that would make you gasp in horror that this is happening today, in one of the supposed best developed countries in the world. This government is telling you that there is no money and it's a LIE. We're all in this together? Bullsh*t. If we let them carry on and do this to the most vulnerable in our society, we are complicit in it, and what's more, if that's not sufficient, it measn you and i are next. As a good friend of mine says, most of us are only ever 2 pay packets away from destitution. Re: foreign aid, I am completely in agreement with Antone, don't think it's done out of charity or the goodness of our governmental heart, it's because it benefits us as a country. What we "give" in aid we get back in a thousands other ways, foreign charity is big business, don't be fooled.

It doesn't? Jeez, I wonder what this site has been doing for the last nearly 7 years! So, the thousands of people on here who have filed at SCC and got their money back, the court system that got jammed up because of them, the other thousands of cases stayed by the courts when the test case came, and of course, the extensive CAG library advising people how to do it... where did they go wrong?

No, you really can't. You can't issue a small Claims Court to recover monies you haven't already paid out. Ask Bankfodder.

Yes and no respectively. See my post on the -long debated- topic here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?374850-Covertly-recording-your-Atos-Assessment Depends on the quality of the recording, but generally speaking, a full CD album is about 45-60 MB for what, 8-10 x 3mns songs? An .avi file for a movie is about 700MBs and that's for 1.5 hours of sound AND video! As long as your mp3 player is relatively recent, it should have at least 1GB of memory so you should be fine. Best thing is to test it at home, record yourself talking for 10 mns and see how that works out in data size!

Gladly... but it will have to be tomorrow, I should be in bed!

That's a very easy one: 1st, close the tax loopholes. http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2012/02/29/why-is-the-sun-prioritising-benefit-fraud-when-the-tax-gap-is-100-times-bigger/ Secondly - no more career politicians, who become MPs because they're too inept to do any other paid job. If you want to be in politics, you do because you want to better the country, so a living wage, end all the allowances and perks gravy train. No more second mortgages or subsidised £100 wine bottles. Instead, like in Sweden (I think), block of studio flats within walking distance of the Houses to use by MPs during their stay on government business within the capital. Reasonable travel allowance for constituency business, that's fair. Thirdly: Re-nationalise utility companies. They don't have to make a loss, contrary to myth. Back to tax avoiders: If you don't like paying taxes like the rest of us, that's fine, feel free to leave the country. But don't think you're taking your assets, factories or whatever with you, You want to leave, I won't stop you, but you made your fortune in THIS country, out of THESE workers, using THIS infrastructure, enjoyed the political stability of THIS place, you can bloody well leave that behind for others who do want to make a success of the UK not just bleed it dry. How's that for a start? @speedfreek: You misunderstand me. Statistics are one thing, the drive to remove as many disabled as possible from the benefits are another. I am not denying that Labour introduced the tests, but I have yet to see any evidence that their aim was to scythe off thousands of people off their lifelines, unlike the proven figures we are seeing increasing weekly under the aptly-named ConDems.

I'm sorry, are people still believing the Tory propaganda that this country is broke? The UK, 7th richest country in the world? THIS country? Oh dear. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html Wake up, folks.

No, that's incorrect. Yes, Labour started the assessments system with Atos (may they be cursed forever for that), but it was the Tories that changed the criteria to what it is now. The Tories came to power and decided they would cut 20% off the disability bill. The Welfare Reform Act (which wasn't in their manifesto) is also a purely Tory idea. As for working with the Disability Groups, the Tories had from 1997 to 2010 to work with them and did no such thing. Nothing. The DDA and the Equality Act and the Autism Act are ALL Labour achievements (although to give her her due, one Tory MP was the co-proposer of the legislation) and were largely opposed by the Tory Party.

Indeed, they started the ball rolling with Atos, but their criteria was extremely different, they didn't have targets or quotas to kick off as many people off benefits as possible. They introduced an assessment system, which is fair enough, which then got turned into a machine to turn claimants into fodder. THAT's the Tories' doing. You're right in that Labour have been quiet about it. But you're wrong about the rest, as the disability groups are working with Labour as we speak. DPAC, Black Triangle etc, they're all in contact with the likes of Anne Begg, Andy Burnham, Anne McGuire etc to get things changed. Like it or not, they're our only choice, because to coin a phrase: We can't go on like this. It's up to us to make sure they know it's a quid pro quo.

Pretty much, yes. The reality is that they're threatening you with all sorts because they know there is precious little chance of them getting the money from you if you're in the UK. I would write to them pointing out the multiple ways in which they breached their own terms and invite them to sue you if they think they can win. I doubt they'll throw good money after bad. They can't legitimately send a DCA after you here without a court order than a UK company can, so this is just huff and puff to scare you into paying at the moment.

People are not smug for reducing their debts, they are relieved they got to grips with it. Sorry, but if you just want a "there there" pat on the hand, this is the wrong place. Man up. Christmas is coming and there's no money, so what? Stop buying into the crass commercialism. If you must celebrate it because you're a christian (are you?), make things, you'd be surprised how cheap it can be. Bake cakes instead and decorate them with a personal message. This isn't about keeping up appearances. You have 3 properties, so it's not as if you were destitute. Sell up or go bankrupt, but see a good advisor about that first. Then start from scratch. It won't be easy, it never is, but what else are you going to do except sit there and wait for the banks to repossess them anyway when you can no longer keep up? If you go bankrupt, payday loans et al can't touch you anymore, you start afresh. One thing is sure, it's not going to get better by doing nothing, so it's up to you where you go from there. One thing is certain, christmas shouldn't be the top of your worries right now, so letting go of the non-essentials would be a good starting point. Edit: LOL, just saw BB's post written at the same time as mine, and see the signature? "Worrying is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere!" That is absolutely bang on the money for this thread!

Indeed. My bad.

Yes, that was rather the point I was making in my first post.

You can't reclaim it if you haven't paid it in the 1st place. Then again, catalogues have very little power to get the money off you, do you still owe them for goods? Personally, I'd finish paying off what I owe for goods, then tell them to do one, and to take you to court if they want the charges and you'll be quite happy to get the judge to tell them to justify those. (they won't, they'll pass it to a DCA instead!) Edit: Sorry, just re-read your post and you did state that it's only the charges that are left. Tell them to sod off them

Of course they won't, since when has a bank helped someone with no money?

1 - pass the word around. 2 - Get EVERY SINGLE person you know who's disabled to write to Ed Milliband and make it clear that they will only vote for Labour if he undertakes to scrap the Welfare Reform Act and all the satellite legislation that goes with it. 3 - Teach people how to fight Atos, the DWP etc at every step. Knowledge is power, always. 4 - Fight the propaganda at each step. every time someone quotes the Daily Mail or calls disabled folks scroungers or worse, correct them with the right figures and facts. Slowly but surely, the media are starting to pay attention to our voices and a few dissenting articles are appearing here and there, it's up to US to keep on pushing the message. 5 - Make sure that by 2015, everyone knows that a vote that's not for Labour means a vote for the tories and further years of misery. 6 - Keep on lobbying Labour for changes, they are starting to listen (way too slowly, way not loudly enough, but it's starting), but they need us to tell them over and over again that it's a symbiotic arrangement: they want to get in power and we want to be treated decently, neither of which will happen as long as the tories stay.

Get into debt for something he's entitled to? Are you George Osborne in disguise?

Completely disagree with Sailor Sam, sorry. It's not different from being gazumped in a house sale, until sale is actually completed there is not a lot the buyer can do, they have suffered no actual loss, just a disappointment.

There you go: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?374850-Covertly-recording-your-Atos-Assessment&p=4068025#post4068025

There's been a fair bit of back and fro about the legalities, and pros and cons of recording your WCA or any other Atos-related assessment for that matter. The consensus seems to be that it's all very well asking Atos to do the recording, but it's probably best not to rely on them actually providing the goods on the day and to have a back-up just in case, which is where covert recording comes into play. Let's be crystal clear here: It is perfectly legal for an individual to record a conversation, and they do not have to notify the other side. An individual person is exempt from the Data Protection Act and not bound by the rules that apply to companies, as long as it it for their personal use. Using a recording so that you can show discrepancies in the notes taken during your assessment, for example, comes without a doubt under "personal use". In fact, even the DWP have had to finally admit that there is no rule to stop people from doing this, despite trying to say otherwise for a long time or trying to put restrictions on how recordings could be done. So, with all of the above in mind, for those who think: "great, I don't trust them buggers, but how do I go about it?", this is a little guide that will hopefully help a few people send Atos and the DWP packing with a flea in their ear: There are plenty of recording devices available these days, including on most phones, so: BEFORE the event: 1 - Use whichever best tool is available to you, if you can afford a secret mike facility, great, if not, make sure that there are as few obstacles between the mike and what's being recorded (clothes rustling or whatever can all interfere, so a clear line of recording is always best) 2 - Practice makes perfect: familiarise yourself with the equipment, try to use it in different situations so you know exactly how to switch it on, adjust it and so on. 3 - Absolutely necessary is enough memory to record the lot, so do invest into a good size memory card, I'd think 8GB will be more than enough, but again it depends on the amount of data the recordign device uses. It's always worth spending a couple of extra quid and get a bigger card if possible IMO. 4 - Start the recording before you get in there, so that if there is a broken lift, or they're trying to bully you into climbing stairs or other traps, or you can't get the door open, or no parking etc...you have recorded proof of their actions. AFTER the event: 5 - Get the data transcripted as soon as possible. If you're capable of doing it yourself, that's fine, just make sure it is an exact transcript. If there are bits which are muffled but you remember what was said, put it in brackets, like this [inaudible, but what happened was this: ...]. 6 - COPY your data onto CD, more than one copy, and also save it online somewhere, and also on different media. (I once went to a DLA tribunal where we were producing a dvd evidence, which they knew about, so had the equipment all in place... except the DVD player wouldn't play our format of DVD! Thankfully, I had my laptop and a USB key with the info on both of them just in case!) 7 - When preparing for tribunal, make sure that you warn both the DWP and the tribunal ahead of time that you will be entering the recording as evidence. 8 - When sending your bundle to the tribunal, enclose the DVD or USB key as part of your index, and the transcript of it as the next item on the index. If you act confident that there is no reason for them to argue, they are far less likely to try and argue, so enter these as parts of your evidence exactly like you would do with a medical report or a letter, it belongs there. It then puts THEM on the wrong footing to try and get it thrown out, and they would HAVE to show a very good reason for it to be rejected (which then gives grounds for higher appeal for erring in law if need be, so double whammy here!) 9 - Make sure you include another copy of the disc or key for the DWP. Normally, the tribunal makes the copies and sends them on to DWP (unlike normal court where you'd be expected to send a bundle to the courts and one to the other side!) but you can't really expect them to do that with a dvd or a USB key, so just do it yourself as a courtesy, clean hands and all that, it deprives the DWP of another chance to say they were ambushed. 10 - See what happens. I would put some money on the DWP folding in more and more cases as they become more and more worried about covert recordings. ;-) Of course, you could always end up with a recording showing the HCP being scrupulously fair, doing their job properly, recording things as they happened etc... and your recording therefore being useless as a defense argument, but that's just one of these things. Let's face it, the odds of that happening are not huge by all accounts.

Thanks, Simon, for the record, I never said I was against asking for the WCA to be recorded by Atos, I just didn't want people to just rely on it and end up being screwed over. Belt and braces approach is always best. I don't know that there is a need for a guide per se about covert recording, based on my own experience, this is how I do it: There are plenty of recording devices available these days, including on most phones. With this in mind, the dos are: BEFORE the event: 1 - Use whichever best tool is available to you, if you can afford a secret mike facility, great, if not, make sure that there are as few obstacles between the mike and what's being recorded (clothes rustling or whatever can all interfere, so a clear line of recording is always best) 2 - Practice makes perfect: familiarise yourself with the equipment, try to use it in different situations so you know exactly how to switch it on, adjust it and so on. 3 - Absolutely necessary is enough memory to record the lot, so do invest into a good size memory card, I'd think 8GB will be more than enough, but again it depends on the amount of data the recordign device uses. It's always worth spending a couple of extra quid and get a bigger card if possible IMO. 4 - Start the recording before you get in there, so that if there is a broken lift, or they're trying to bully you into climbing stairs or other traps, or you can't get the door open, or no parking etc...you have recorded proof of their actions. AFTER the event: 5 - Get the data transcripted as soon as possible. If you're capable of doing it yourself, that's fine, just make sure it is an exact transcript. If there are bits which are muffled but you remember what was said, put it in brackets, like this [inaudible, but what happened was this: ...]. 6 - COPY your data onto CD, more than one copy, and also save it online somewhere, and also on different media. (I once went to a DLA tribunal where we were producing a dvd evidence, which they knew about, so had the equipment all in place... except the DVD player wouldn't play our format of DVD! Thankfully, I had my laptop and a USB key with the info on both of them just in case!) 7 - When preparing for tribunal, make sure that you warn both the DWP and the tribunal ahead of time that you will be entering the recording as evidence. 8 - When sending your bundle to the tribunal, enclose the DVD or USB key as part of your index, and the transcript of it as the next item on the index. If you act confident that there is no reason for them to argue, they are far less likely to try and argue, so enter these as parts of your evidence exactly like you would do with a medical report or a letter, it belongs there. It then puts THEM on the wrong footing to try and get it thrown out, and they would HAVE to show a very good reason for it to be rejected (which then gives grounds for higher appeal for erring in law if need be, so double whammy here!) 9 - Make sure you include another copy of the disc or key for the DWP. Normally, the tribunal makes the copies and sends them on to DWP (unlike normal court where you'd be expected to send a bundle to the courts and one to the other side!) but you can't really expect them to do that with a dvd or a USB key, so just do it yourself as a courtesy, clean hands and all that, it deprives the DWP of another chance to say they were ambushed. 10 - See what happens. I would put some money on the DWP folding in more and more cases as they become more and more worried about covert recordings. ;-) Of course, you could always end up with a recording showing the HCP being scrupulously fair, doing their job properly, recording things as they happened etc... and your recording therefore being useless as a defense argument, but that's just one of these things. Let's face it, the odds of that happening are not huge by all accounts. Edit: I will C&P this as a standalone post in a new thread so it doesn't get lost in this long thread here.

Absolutely spot on, Wobbly. That is the argument one should always use, the "what do they have to hide that they so badly don't want to be recorded?" Human nature being what it is, that would psychologically more than counter the possible "sneaky" argument. Claimant can say they were just taking a precaution, quite sensible seeing the horror stories they were aware of. There is absolutely no such excuse for the HCP, so even their protests make them look worse, they're in a no-win situation. And of course, let's not forget the even better possible outcome: faced with a possibly damaging recording, the DWP are far more likely to back down long before it goes to tribunal, and that surely should be anyone's end game: to get what they're entitled to as quick as possible with as little fuss as possible.

And you need to learn that telling someone to "calm down" when they were perfectly calm in the first place is the best way to get them mightily p***ed off. And oh, btw, you're welcome.