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    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Successful Defence Against Private Parking Charge Michael Sobell of Roxborough


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The following documents comprise the full judgement and the case transcript of a case brought by East Kent Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust.

 

They were represented by Michael Sobell of Roxborough.

 

They Lost!

 

CAG member Scouse Magic has given permission for this to be posted in full and without removal of any data.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45338[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45339[/ATTACH]

Edited by ims21

 

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haha that legal team was totally inept and Sm was very well prepared. Good job to SM!

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Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Please look out for the the part where ' THE DRIVER' ????? who turned out to be Gary Osner,the managing director of Roxburghe and Sobell (solicitor) perjur themselves to the judge!

 

He kept running over and writing on Sobell's note pad, judge picked up on it at third attempt..............And asked ' hello are you the driver or a paralegal' ...........I am contemplating whether to refer this back to the judge?

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There were a hell of a lot of mistakes from that 'solicitor'. Love how the judge called out one of the witnesses too, when it was clear that he lied on his statement.

  • Confused 1

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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More than likely he isnt a solicitor. He's probably just from the "legal department" of the PPC

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now this case was in January, imagine Sobell's surprise when he realised he had to attend the same court, but this time with the Mrs!

 

Well on reflection of the absolute thrashing he had previously by the mighty Scouse Magic, it was not so un-surprising that proceedings were suddenly dropped......just a shame really that he did not file the correct form and offer my costs to that point!

I counter claimed the intial particulars of claim which was totally wrong.......Sobell said they related to one car .....but it was two.

 

For your purusal and enjoyment I post some of the judges comments in my case...................

 

JUDGE "The Claimant notwithstanding being advised by the Court that the application to

adjourn was not being granted, makes no appearance or indeed any

communication with the Court whatsoever. My reaction to that is that any firm

of solicitors, and it may well be that Mr Sobell is the only solicitor employed by

that firm, but notwithstanding that, any solicitor in practice engaged in litigation

who simply fails to attend Court, does not take notice of a message that was left

on his firm’s answering machine, even if he is hospitalised, as per the 15th March

application avers, must have some administrative staff to ensure that whilst he is

personally unable to work, that the work is going to be covered. The world does

not stop simply because a solicitor goes into hospital.

And I am not impressed by the absence of any response to the telephone message that was left and the fact that he even thought it was appropriate to apply for an

adjournment in the first place when it would have been easy to engage either

another solicitor by way of an agency agreement or simply to instruct counsel to

attend on behalf of the client.

So I am dealing with this counterclaim in the absence of anything from the Claimant and also, as Miss Fever has pointed out, in the absence of any

documents put forward in defence of the counterclaim.

The way in which the claim was being pursued is quite frankly a mess.

 

 

The second complaint that Miss Fever makes is that in the letter before the claim and this is from Graham White Solicitors, the letter dated the 23rd October 2012, it

says this:

“Registered keeper details were obtained from the DVLA and my

client wrote to the registered keeper requesting either payment or

details as to who was driving the car at the time of the

unauthorised parking events. During various recorded

communications between the registered keeper, you, and my client

you have admitted to being the driver at the time of these events.

Both my client and my firm have written to you on several

occasions to request payment of the above debt and to date you

have not paid despite offering to pay.”

Well, those two assertions are clearly both wrong. And it is a matter of concern that a solicitor would write to a Defendant setting out not one but two grossly

inaccurate assertions.

 

 

Needless to say Judgement awarded in my favour for £235.00 and £180.00 costs awarded.

 

 

Now then, old Sobell decided he could challenge this.....and was shot down in flames by His Honour Judge Scarrat...." There being no realistic prospect of success".

 

 

I then turned the tables on them, threatening them with a warrant of execution.....They ignored me .....The claimant (hospital) paid out in the end!

 

Edited by dx100uk
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  • 2 weeks later...

I love it when a plan comes together, and the legal team are anialated.I actually defended myself over a county court claim between a miss Jodie Louise Sutton, and my self.She turned left from a right hand lane at a roundabout , and smashed into my car.She drove off and refused to admit liability later.She decided to put in a claim to Boston county court and even went to such lengths as to get a barrister.I represented myself, ripped her to pieces with my constant barrage of questioning, ripped her barristers defending to pieces and won the case.It way back in about 1998 if i remember.She had to pay me £285.00 within 30 days.After 34 days, no money ,so I took out a warrant of execution, costing £50.00 at the time.3 days later,there was a cheque for £335.00 in the post for me.I stood my ground, did my homework, got a copy of the police accident report, got my 3 witnesses and won.unfortunately,i don't have any details as this was my very first case I took on myself.However,would it be possible to get the transcripts if i contacted Boston county court.......I have since gone on to have someone settle out of court in 2010, and have had a recent out of court settlement for nearly £800.00 from Quinn insurance.

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I love it when a plan comes together, and the legal team are anialated.I actually defended myself over a county court claim between a miss Jodie Louise Sutton, and my self.She turned left from a right hand lane at a roundabout , and smashed into my car.She drove off and refused to admit liability later.She decided to put in a claim to Boston county court and even went to such lengths as to get a barrister.I represented myself, ripped her to pieces with my constant barrage of questioning, ripped her barristers defending to pieces and won the case.It way back in about 1998 if i remember.She had to pay me £285.00 within 30 days.After 34 days, no money ,so I took out a warrant of execution, costing £50.00 at the time.3 days later,there was a cheque for £335.00 in the post for me.I stood my ground, did my homework, got a copy of the police accident report, got my 3 witnesses and won.unfortunately,i don't have any details as this was my very first case I took on myself.However,would it be possible to get the transcripts if i contacted Boston county court.......I have since gone on to have someone settle out of court in 2010, and have had a recent out of court settlement for nearly £800.00 from Quinn insurance.

 

Well done you......I do love it when justice prevails!

I do wish though that more people would take on these wrongdoers of society. The world would be such a better place and teach them that they cannot abuse the court system in order to demand "give us your money".

 

Unfortunately most people get scared when they get court papers thinking that there may be trouble ahead and just cough up, when in reality, with just a little homework and preparation the outcome can be victorious. Allaluya to that i say.

 

Transcripts are costly though, you wont get much change out of £200, (could be more), depending on the length of hearing and how many folios there are............Well worth it in my opinion.........Makes a fabulous read and keepsake.......... I have no regrets. :peace:

Edited by Liverpool way
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It hasn't damaged your work life or your relationship with your employer? Best of luck!

 

That is of no matter, if they want to use a load of knobs to pursue pathetic claims trying to rip staff patients and visitors off, then they and roxburghe picked on the wrong person

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