Ok, I have news, as of yet unconfirmed officially, but they are causing a lot of distress on the disability circuit. The good people at Spartacus are looking into it, so please don't panic just yet:

 

'Report today that an ATOS test centre in Chelmsford, has stated that, after a meeting held at DWP yesterday, all centres have been told that the recording of assessments is no longer available.

They now have to offer an appointment WITHOUT recording facilities which you must accept or declare you as a no show!'

 

We're trying to find out more, but this is in direct contradiction of what Grayling himself said to the Commons Committee.

 

IF this is true, this justifies even more that you should record your own without telling them.

Well an MP saying misleading information isnt anything new.

What I want to know is why after a lot of effort recorded medicals were allowed and then after a meeting they cancelled, its quite clear the effort going into not doing recordings is the act of a dishonest company to me. Thats my personal view not fact so as to not get this site into trouble for my comment.

Well an MP saying misleading information isnt anything new.

 

What I want to know is why after a lot of effort recorded medicals were allowed and then after a meeting they cancelled, its quite clear the effort going into not doing recordings is the act of a dishonest company to me. Thats my personal view not fact so as to not get this site into trouble for my comment.

Indeed, and this is why I posted it as a 'this is what I heard', not as a confirmed fact! Still worrying that someone could say such a thing, but hey ho.

What do you expect? 11 recording machines for the whole country, it's obvious they can't cope and are not even trying... unable to organise a ****-up in a brewery springs to mind.

Thanks for the alert, CrazyD. Even if what you have picked up is 'a local misunderstanding' rather than an unannounced national disgrace (equally likely, in my view), I, for one, would be grateful all or any further details if or when they materialise.

Despite the fact that the supposed revised policy is supposed to have been operation since August of last year, there has been no 'official documentation' whatsoever issued by the DWP on the current scheme all that time. They have no-one but themselves to blame if people, understandably confused, now fear the worst.

If the worst applies, or is feared to apply, then I have no doubt that many claimants will resort to covert recording in any event, despite the risk of a WCA being halted. As has been said many times, it is not illegal.

I have seen an increasing number of reports that recorded assessments are going to be withdrawn due to a lack of demand.

Quite clearly this is absurd - how can the majority be expected to ask for their assessment to be recorded if they are never told it's possible?

And what about those for whom recording is essential because of their disability? Is it not discriminatory to make the reasonable adjustment of recording the assessment for them?

We seriously need to get some publicity for this before it's too late. Anyone have a suitable contact who might take up the story? Which papers have run anti-ATOS stories before and might be interested?

Well the Daily Mirror have run stories highly critical of ATOS in the past as have the Guardian.

But I'm not sure If they were just on their websites, and not in the paper itself.

If the worst applies, or is feared to apply, then I have no doubt that many claimants will resort to covert recording in any event, despite the risk of a WCA being halted.

With the way things are now, even if ATOS did record the interview, I would still want to record it myself. I would not trust them to not tamper with the recording.

For them to stop the interview, due to you recording, they would need to find/see the recorder. If they attempt to search you for such a device, you would stop the interview yourself and report them to the police. They are not allowed to search you.

I am sure you will find that if they do try to search you, then that can be taken as "assault" which is a criminal offence if I remember correctly.

All recent posts noted and agreed.

I'm now digesting this lot:-

DWP (27 06 12) :-

"…audio recordings are available to claimants requiring a medical assessment on request to Atos Healthcare. The request for a recording should not delay the arrangement of a medical assessment. [Oh really!?!]….

… whilst arrangements are in place to enable customers to request an audio recording there is currently no document advising claimants that they can request audio recordings of their medical assessment. A process guide is currently being agreed by Atos Healthcare and the DWP to improve claimant awareness [!] of the steps to should take if they wish to request audio recording of their assessment."

(fFom an FoI response, yestederday:- http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/wca_audi_recording_pilot#incoming-291908 )

And from the same response:-

"Audio recordings are … considered to be 'documents' for the purposes of appeals and Social Security Tribunals (SSAT). Recordings may be admitted as evidence, if considered to be relevant to the point in question.

Audio recordings submitted to SSATs as evidence will require transcription. Arrangement for transcription services and any associated costs usually fall to the party presenting the evidence, i.e. if a claimant is requesting that the recording being admitted, then this becomes their responsibility, and therefore arrangement for and costs of transcription are likely to fall to the claimant. However, SSAT Chairs may, at their discretion, attribute transcription costs to either party i.e. the claimant or DWP."

It is of course for the tribunals concerned, not the DWP, to determine admissibility of evidence. Nevertheless, the DWP's recent admission that it is not illgal to take a 'covert' recording of a WCA, combined with the above acknowledgement of a tribunal's discretion to admit recordings as evidence, may, I hope, provide some encouragement to to those wrestling with the system one way or another.

The DWP has already admitted that as between a recording of a WCA and an HCP's 'report', there may be matters which a DWP (supposed) 'decision maker' might have to take into account:-

"…it would be for the claimant to highlight the contentious areas when requesting reconsideration."

(See:-- http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/recorded_wcas_and_reconsideratio#incoming-290647 )

I am currently compiling a letter to be sent to both the papers mentioned above and the Shadow Minister in charge of benefits. Maybe he can start asking uncomfortable questions in Parliament.

I am currently compiling a letter to be sent to both the papers mentioned above and the Shadow Minister in charge of benefits. Maybe he can start asking uncomfortable questions in Parliament.

Good for you let me know of any respnse:)

Research for the above mentioned letter continues apace, but however many 'I've been told ...' and 'the rumour is ...' that I have found, I have been unable to identify a single identifiable source for the following (identifiable meaning a source such as a newspaper report or a named individual) :-

some sets of recording equipment are 'out of order'

recording is to be withdrawn due to lack of demand

recording is to be withdrawn for any other/no reason

Also, I know someone posted a link to a source confirming that home assessments can be recorded but being an idiot when it comes to searching I can't find it. I've probably paged past it on this thread somewhere.

If anyone can help, it would be appreciated, but no one should be holding their breath waiting for a response ....

Hi, pls help

I applied for ESA in July 2011 then in December I have been sent to medical assessment they gave me 12 point I made appeal at tribunal in 20 jun 2012 next day I recieved a letter from tribunal on the letter say

( This appeal is Allowed

The decision of the Secretary of state issued on 13/12/2011 is set a side

and then it saying Mr.xxxxxxx. Me not entitled to Employment and Support Allownce (RSA) with work activity component

The descriptors satisfied in Schedule 2 of ESA

2b. 9 points 7c. 6 points

I just need to know what am I entitled to ????

Thank you with regard

man0077. My guess is you would get more offers of help on your position in another thread. This one is largely about the particular issue of the recording of assesments. I suspect a team member will be along to help shortly.

RMW,

As regards.. 'home visits':-

Grayling told Parliament in February 2012 that you couldn't get a home visit WCA recorded:-

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2012-02-22b.95005.h&s=%22recording%22+section%3Awrans+section%3Awms#g95005.q0

Campaigner Paul Smith had other ideas. See:-

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/confirmation_of_facts#comment-28843

As regards;-

… reports of delays in getting recorded assessments carried out, alleged breakdown of machinery, scarcity of consenting HCPs, - apart from those contributed at CAG here - there has been a 'rash' of them at the' site we don't mention' (because it charges for membership), where many of the relevant threads have recently been put into one section which makes for ease of research. I doubt you need a link to that, but it would be against site rules for me to offer one here.

(It may be worth pointing out that the demand-volume, technical breakdowns, unavailability of staff etc, were all tolerably predictable from the shoddy little report the DWP had in June last year.

Ridiculously, in describing (to Parliament) the overall percentage of claimants who didn't want a recording during last year's trial, Grayling included those instances where claimants said they did, but didn't turn up - e.g because they were too ill on the day – and those who turned up wanting the assessment recorded as offered, but Atos did not have the capacity to record on the day!)

Best of luck in your endeavours.

There has been further report of attempts to deny an entitlement to a recording posted here, today:-

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/06/04/atos-wca-audio-recording-pilot-study-report/

The above link does not work, this is what I got twice when I tried

The address wasn't understood

Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because the protocol (mhtml) isn't associated with any program.

You might need to install other software to open this address.

any Suggestions ?

Sorry, keefy. I'm using whtever the latest version of MS internet explorer is and it opens without probs each time. Anybody? My IT skills are extremely limited.

I'll do some copy and pasting if necessary.

Firefox appears to be adding a load of junk before the http at the start of the link remove this on the error page and it works.

dpick

yep deleted the junk and it came up fine........ we could ask for the Interview/Medical to be carried out at police stations, so then it is done properly....... I have worked in several police stations and have hardly ever (only when a coachload of football yobs were arrested) seen ALL the recording devices in use........ we can wish can't we..... but that does make interesting reading......

Firefox appears to be adding a load of junk before the http at the start of the link remove this on the error page and it works.

 

dpick

Safari seems to be doing the same thing.

Sorry, it's turned into a bit of an epic! However, I would be grateful for some proof readers, particularly to check that I've got all my facts straight and those links work properly.

The Great WCA Assessment Recording Swindle

As many of you will know, the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) and ATOS Healthcare (ATOS) undertook a pilot study last year into the feasibility of audio recording Work Capability Assessments (WCAs), in part prompted by the number of requests for recording being received by ATOS on a daily basis but mostly in response to a recommendation by Professor Harrington. The report from that study was released at the end of April this year (http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-recording-pilot-report.pdf), though on 1st February Chris Grayling, Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, had already revealed that audio recording was available to those who requested it, and, though absolutely no one had been aware of it, had been since late 2011 (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201212/cmhansrd/cm120201/halltext/120201h0001.htm).

The ‘Harrington Recording Pilot’ took place from March to May, 2011. 500 claimants were offered a recording of their assessment and 68% accepted, though only 46% were actually recorded. The latter figure apparently justifies the frequent references to ‘less than half of claimants wanting a recording’, whereas the apparent reduction not only includes claimants who changed their minds, but also even includes claimants who were turned away because no one was available to conduct their assessment! In fact, over 60% of those 500 claimants still wanted their assessments to be recorded when they arrived at the assessment centre.

Unfortunately, more than four months after Mr Grayling made his comments, claimants are still mostly unaware that they can ask for a recording since the documentation issued by the DWP and ATOS neither mentions that recording is available nor tells claimants how to request it. Despite this, the facility is now apparently to be withdrawn as uneconomical due to lack of demand.

WCAs are carried out in 141 assessment centres throughout the country. However, a Freedom of Information request (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_devices) has revealed that there are only eleven sets of recording equipment to share between all those centres, and, allegedly, two of those are ‘out of order’, giving an average of one between sixteen. At any given centre therefore a claimant can expect a recorder to be available about once every three weeks.

At the moment ATOS are supposed to be assessing 11,000 claimants a week who are transferring from Incapacity Benefit (IB) to Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), in addition to both new and continuing claimants to ESA. Based upon the figures from the Pilot, ATOS should have been expecting upward of 7,500 claimants per week to request a recording and for around 5,000 assessments to be recorded, had all claimants been aware of the availability of the facility. Assuming that each was used for an average of eight assessments per day, at least 125 recorders are actually required, though common sense would dictate that an extra 16 to provide one per centre would be reasonable.

Despite the lack of publicity, it is apparent that some claimants are asking to have their assessment recorded. Many of those claimants have been through the process at least once before and are seeking the reassurance of a more reliable record of the interview than that provided by the Healthcare Professional’s (HCP’s) report alone. Some claimants have been sufficiently worried by reports of other people’s experiences to seek similar reassurance, whilst some are seeking a recording because it is the only way they will later be able to recall what was said, either due to the effects of their condition or to the side effects of the medication which they take. Whatever the reason for their request, the procedure is proving to be a minefield to negotiate.

Firstly, though no claimants have actually been officially informed of this fact, requests for recording facilities have to be made when the ESA50 form is completed, presumably in the section which asks if any special arrangements, such as an interpreter, need to be made for the assessment. Next, ATOS send the claimant an appointment for their assessment, and may also phone. If the claimant asks at this stage whether recording equipment will be available, they will often find that ATOS apparently have no knowledge of the request and will have to contact the assessment centre direct to clarify. Almost inevitably, no equipment is available and the appointment is rebooked for a later date, when the process is more likely than not going to be repeated. And repeated. And maybe even repeated again. One claimant recently advised that she has now been waiting for her assessment since mid-April and has been told it will be August or September at the earliest before equipment is available. Also being told back pay will be calculated immediately the result of the assessment is known is no consolation to someone who is going to have been on the assessment rate for at least seven months, rather than the 13 weeks specified in the legislation.

The problems do not end there, however. The claimant can have made their request at the right time and had three or four appointments postponed before being assured that this time everything will be fine, only to be told on arrival at the assessment centre that unfortunately the equipment is still not available and would they like to rebook yet again or go ahead regardless. Since those claimants (and their companions) have often gone to considerable trouble to be in the right place at the right time, is it surprising if many choose the latter option?

So, if the vast majority of claimants don’t know that they can have their assessment recorded and those that do are having to wait so long that they have to give up, is it any surprise that so few assessments are being recorded? Withdrawing recording under these circumstances is only going to lead everyone to believe that the Government never seriously intended it to be available in the first place. It’s time to prove us wrong. Start telling everyone who wants it how to get their assessment recorded, provide enough equipment to do the job efficiently and make it clear to ATOS that HCPs who are accurately reporting assessments have no reason to refuse to be recorded (and conversely, refusal implies a lack of honesty). Only when a sufficient number of claimants have gone all the way through the process, including appeals where necessary, can anyone say with any confidence that recording assessments does or does not improve the accuracy of reports, and isn’t ‘Right First Time’ what we’re all aiming for?

well since my last cancellation date I have had no more letters from ATOS.

Excellent letter, the only thing I would add is that they refuse to confirm in writing that the assessments they cancel are due to their lack of being able to provide the service and not the claimants, to ensure the claimant is not blamed for a missed assessment which could lead to sanctions etc........

If you would like I do not mind if you cut and paste the draft of the letter they sent me supposed cancelling my assessment which was in fact.... "tough we a'int doing it".

Dear Mrs XXXXX,

I have received your request to obtain an audio recording of your medical assessment.

Unfortunately we are unable to provide the service at present.

Therefore your appointment on 3rd July 2012 will not be audio recorded.

I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

yours sincerely,

XXXXXX

Worried33. Thanks for the update. I do hope you are at least keeping notes of what you are being told on the telephone. Many people fear that a certain subcontractor will start reporting 'non-attendance' to the DWP even where repeated delay in carrying out an assessment is entirely due to their inability to provide a recording.

RMW. All your links worked for my browser. Impressive letter.

Dilizjo: "Thank you for your letter. Depsite the considerable inconvenience this causes me, you will obviously now need to reschedule the appointment. I will only attend a recorded assessment." (?)

I spotted this further FoI request put in to the DWP yesterday:-

"What action does the DWP and Atos take when the information contained in the HCP's ESA85 does not match the information heard on the audio recording of the medical assessment[?]. This includes contradictory information, false information, inaccurate information etc. For example, if it is heard in the audio recording that a claimant states they cannot wash their hair without help and when they cant get up and wash they use baby wipes in bed but the HCP records on the ESA85 "No problem with washing and showering" - What action is taken in respect of false reporting by the HCP to the decision maker?"

I suspect that this may be just the beginning of many queries\comments concerning such specific 'hypothetical examples' appearing on the internet, now that people can, supposedly, insist on getting a recording – in exactly the way that the DWP and its subcontractor have, I think, always most dreaded. Best of luck to this enquirer, and all like her.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/atos_false_reporting_to_dwp_deci#incoming-292277

I wish I had my DLA medical recorded.

I got a brief letter (with no copy of medial attached) saying was assessed to walk 200metres.

The truth was I was watched taking 2 steps through a doorway, and I had not ony explained my problems but also provided medical letters backing me up.

This only backs up why I want my ESA recorded.

I wish I had my DLA medical recorded.

 

I got a brief letter (with no copy of medial attached) saying was assessed to walk 200metres.

 

The truth was I was watched taking 2 steps through a doorway, and I had not ony explained my problems but also provided medical letters backing me up.

 

This only backs up why I want my ESA recorded.

What was in your medical evidence you supplied?

It should describe your walking ability - distance, gait, speed and any symptoms that arose after walking. A GP's report saying that you find walking difficult is of no use.

Anybody that says that they can't walk yet manage to walk two steps at the assessment centre is going to lose!

Generally the measured distance in an assessment centre is 20 metres (waiting room to assessment room) Walk that, and tell them that you can manage only 15 metres is on a one way ticket - out!

Most people I know state about 27 metres which is well below the minimum required and greater than they can normally assess you doing.

As the 200 metres is just their opinion all you have to do is disprove it by having another walking assessment, say with the OT department at your local hospital.

Anybody and everybody is going to tell the assessor that they can't walk. It is not for the assessor to prove that you can - all they have to do is create doubt. As the claimant it is your responsibility to prove what you say on the claim from is the case and back it up. Provide cold hard reports from specialised medics or OT's. A half baked report that doesn't have much substance from your GP is a waste of time.

A recorded assessment in your case would serve no purpose. You say you can't walk, they say they think you can. It is medical evidence that is needed not a CD of what you said!