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    • Yes. I'd be very interested to know how the defendant fared in putting forward the defence that the calaimant had been contributorily negligent by not keeping their cat under control. I'm aware that some people might find that fatuous, distracting or confusing, but the reality is that I'm not aware of any law that imposes a duty upon cat owners to keep their pets under control.  Whereas I believe the law does hold dog owners responsible for their dogs in public places. I'm not certain it was at all beneficial to the OP to suggest that blaming the claimant was a credible defence...
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    • Good evening, so not a good weekend reviewing paperwork -- I have lost some proofs of postage.. also, although not provided at CCA, they have now supplied a DN in their WS, please see scan of claimants WS (without statements) Document with tick boxes as signatures doesn't look like an agreement and is split across pages. Documents have been stapled and copied multiple times looking at the top left of them. Aside from that, having read other threads, I suspect they have everything? appreciate your input please Sorry for heavy redactions, I noticed the paperwork was see-through LinkHalifaxCC1.compressed.pdf
    • Received a final demand today Final demand.pdf
    • Here is my final draft: I, XXXXXX, being the Defendant in this case will state as follows; I make this Witness Statement in support of my defence in the claim and further to my set aside application dated 1 November 2022. The claimants witness statement confirms that it mostly relies on hearsay evidence as confirmed by the drafts in person in the opening paragraph. It is my understanding they must serve notice to any hearsay evidence pursuant to CPR 33.2(1)(B) (notice of intention to rely on hearsay evidence) and Section 2 (1) (A) of the Civil Evidence Act.   1.        The claimant failed to comply with the additional directions ordered by District Judge Davis on the 2 February 2024 'The Claim shall be automatically struck out at 4pm on 3 April 2024 unless the Claimant delivers to the Court and to the Defendant the following documents.' None of these documents were received by the court nor the defendant by that date.   2.        I understand that the claimant is an Assignee, a buyer of defunct or bad debts, which are bought on mass portfolios at a much reduced cost to the amount claimed and which the original creditors have already wrote off as a capital loss and claimed against taxable income as confirmed in the claimants witness statement exhibit by way of the Deed of Assignment.   As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights.  This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information).  The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party.   3.        The alleged letter of claim dated 7 January 2020 was served to a previous address which I moved out of in 2018, no effort was made to ascertain my correct address.  I have attached a copy of my tenancy agreement which is marked ‘Appendix 1’ and shows I was residing at a difference address as of 11 December 2018 and was therefore not at the service address at the time the proceedings were served.  I have also attached an email from my solicitors to the Claimants solicitors dated 14 July 2022 which was sent to them requesting that they disclose the trace of evidence they utilised prior to issuing the proceedings against me.  This is marked ‘Appendix 2’.  The claimants solicitors did not provide me with these documents.   4.        Under The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims 2017 a Debt Buyer must undertake all reasonable enquiries to ensure the correct address of a debtor, this can be as simple as a credit file search. The Claimant failed to carry out such basic checks. Subsequently all letters prior to and including ,The Pre action Protocol letter of claim dated 7 January 2020 and the claim form dated 14th February 2020 were all served to a previous address which I moved out of in 2018.   5.        I became aware of original Judgement following a routine credit check on or around 14th September 2020.   6.        Upon the discovery of the Judgement debt, I made immediate contact with the Court and the Claimant Solicitors, putting them on notice that I was making investigations in relation to the Judgement debt as it was not familiar to me.  I asked them to provide me with a copy of the original loan agreement but this was not provided to me.   The correspondence to the Claimant Solicotors is attached and marked ‘Appendix 3’   7.        I then sent a Data Subject Access Request to Barclays but no agreement was provided. Details the timeline of communication between myself and Barclays are attached and marked ‘Appendix 4’and the copies of correspondence between myself and Barclays are attached and marked ‘Appendix 5’.   8.        The claimant relies upon and exhibits a reconstituted version of the alleged agreement.   It is again denied that I have ever entered into an agreement with Barclaycard on or around 2000.  It is admitted that I did hold other credit agreements with other creditors and as such should this be a debt that was assigned to Barclaycard from another brand therefore the reconstituted agreement disclosed is invalid being pre April 2007 and not legally enforceable pursuant to HH Judge Waksman in Carey v HSBC 2009 EWHC3417.  Details of this are attached and marked ‘Appendix 6’.   The original credit agreement must be provided along with any reconstituted version on a modified credit agreement and must contain the names and address of debtor and creditor, agreement number and cancelation clause.   9.        Therefore the claimant is put to strict proof to disclose a true executed legible agreement on which its claim relies upon and not try to mislead the court.   10.   As per CPR 1.4(2)(a) the court encourages parties to cooperate with each other in the conduct of proceedings in order to try and save time and costs for the parties and to also save the time and resources of the court however, despite vast attempts at mediation the claimants have been most unreasonable and have remained unwilling to mediate. Until such time the claimant can comply and disclose a true executed copy of the original assigned agreement they refer to within the particulars of this claim they are not entitled while the default continues, to enforce the agreement pursuant to section 78.6 (a) of the Credit Consumer Act 1974. I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.  I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. Signed                 ………………………………………………….. Name                  XXXX Date                     30 April 2024
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chez's HP agreement problems


chez262
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With regard to a creditor sending out a bad notice for eg one that overstates the arrears or does not give not less than 14 days, I have put this to the enforcement team at the oft who decided after consultation with their legal team, that if a notice is invalid then the creditor did not terminate the agreement, therefore cannot enforce in court. However they said that it did not stop them issuing a valid one to remedy situation. However in practice, you would have to convince a judge that it was not just a technicality. This is where the Harrison judgment is I feel vital as it slings it back to the creditor and even if you don't get to court could use this as leverage against a creditor who is behaving unreasonably when they refuse a payment plan and send a bad notice instead.

 

The unlawful rescission argument is now I feel thin. It means that if a creditor makes a court claim on reliance of a bad notice, they would need to discontinue, serve a valid notice and if debtor did not remedy, would then need to seek permission to make another claim.

 

I do think however as this is crowgals thread that she/he may need some help to narrow down the relevant points to argue.

 

Hi WP,

I notice you emphasis a bad notice here, do you know if this is the same for no notice at all? By this I mean, a termination with no 'missed' payment, only a late payment and no notice sent prior to termination.

Thanks

C

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Hi WP,

 

It's actually a Hire agreement. They have the goods now and did proceed to court without my knowledge of a court date (I had put in a defence). They obtained a judgment so I applied to have it set aside. They informed me they would challenge this up until the final week when they consented to the application.

That is where I currently stand. I am now having to file and serve an amended defence.

 

Regards,

C

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Hi WP,

 

It's actually a Hire agreement. They have the goods now and did proceed to court without my knowledge of a court date (I had put in a defence). They obtained a judgment so I applied to have it set aside. They informed me they would challenge this up until the final week when they consented to the application.

That is where I currently stand. I am now having to file and serve an amended defence.

 

Regards,

C

 

Good afternoon cherz

 

Have a read of the Judgment handed down by the Court of Appeal in Woodchester Lease Management Services V. Swain

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

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HI Chez

 

I havent looked at this thread from the begining for a while i am ashamed to say.

You say that this is a hire agreement and they reposessed your goods?

 

If this is the case you have grounds for complaint and counter suit, because the agreement had not been terminated(due to the defective DN).

This has well documented case law, if this would have been a hire purchase agreement there may have even been grounds for an action for conversion( depending on how much of the agreement had been paid)

 

Peter

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Chez

 

Firstly, I think you ought to start your own thread/case report here in the legal issues forum, otherwise Crowgal's thread is going to suffer from highjack most severe.

 

Secondly, here is a link to the Woodchester case:

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1998/1209.html

Kind regards

The Mould

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If this is right, what peter says, that the agreement was a Hire Purchase agrement and the default was bad, then you need Chartered Trust vs Pritcher as the authority to support you as well as Harrison

 

I too havent read the thread from the start

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If this is right, what peter says, that the agreement was a Hire Purchase agrement and the default was bad, then you need Chartered Trust vs Pritcher as the authority to support you as well as Harrison

 

I too havent read the thread from the start

 

 

Hi

Thank you Paul

 

I new i had read it you just saved me a lot of digging.

 

Peter

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I've moved these posts to your own thread chez.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all,

 

Many thanks for your help so far, much appreciated!

I have since submitted an allocation questionaire and an amended defence, or my solicitor has. The claimants have submitted their reply, which I received today.

I must stress my case is very complex. It includes 2 contracts, 4 defendants and one of the contracts has a clause removing it from the CCA due to it being over £25000.

I have the defence and reply but would appreciate if someone would take a look to check if it is ok to put up on here please?

I am now being advised that this is likely to go all the way through court but before I accept that outcome I would appreciate some advice on my chances of success or some extended help with case law etc.

Thanks and regards,

Chez

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You might want to confirm with your Solicitor that they are happy for you to post on CAG whilst they are acting for you .

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Thanks citizen, that's the problem though. I have already paid my solicitor over £3000 and he is estimating costs around the £10000 mark. The claimants are also estimating costs around the £20000 mark hence it being vital I make the right decisions before this goes any further. Don't get me wrong, I know the decision is mine at the end of the day but I have nothing to base it on right now!

I don't think I can continue to pay my solicitor so might also have to go this alone from now on :(

A few cagers have helped me along so far so I was hoping they or someone else could look over my defence and their reply before I move on any further.

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Aha, righto. I just didnt want you to fall foul of your own legal team.

 

You might want to pm andyorch and just ask him to pop onto your thread and offer some advice. I think postgj is another one who understands HP agreements :)

 

HTH

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

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Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi Chez

 

Happy to assist with the legal procedure but HP is not really my forte, however I see Post is subscribed.

 

Regards

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks Andy, Post,

 

I have had bits of threads started on here overthe two years this has been going on.

I unfortunately don't have a thread that will paint the exact story of my whole case.

If I send you the latest defence and reply it should give a good picture of my case, anything you require me to put up in this thread I will do.

I'm hoping from the defence and reply you will know what you will need to see, i.e. the contracts?

Does this sound ok or is there another process I should follow in the CAG? I would just put the defence and reply up here but I'm not sure if that is the best thing to do with it being the currect defence as opposed to the case as a whole.

Please advise, much appreciated.

Thanks,

Chez

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  • 1 month later...

Will find someone who knows how to do this :)

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I use PDF editor ( or simple way is to copy and turn it into a word doc edit and convert back to PDF)

 

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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:thumb:

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi Caggers,

 

Many thanks, I think I have it sorted now :)

 

I have attached the Defence and Reply into this thread now below. I have taken out names and addresses but left dates and figures as requested.

I have until Monday/Tuesday to make a decision on this case, either settle with the claimants or go all the way to court. My solicitors words are he would like to think I would win but obviously it's the judge I get on the day if he agrees with me or not.

Now I understand this process, that there is no black or white so I'm not here searching for guarantees, just advice from caggers who have experience in the courts of late as to which way this is more likely to swing or if there is something in here which gives me no chance in hell :(

 

I have an SAR from the company and I am currently going through it to corroborate what they claim in the reply. One thing I am certain of is there were no missing parts when returned and the only effort they made to collect the equipment was by visiting the property which was shut when they knew full well it would be shut due to a fire incident we had informed them of.

 

Also, the contract for defendant 1 and 2 does have a clause stating over £25000 would not be regulated by the CCA, however this clause is a page below the signature and the contract has written all over it that I should be aware I am entering into a regulated agreement. Even next to the signature strip!

 

The contract for defendant 3 and 4 however does not have the clause stating it would not be regulated.

 

 

 

any thanks again for your time!

Defence.pdf

Reply.pdf

Edited by chez262
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Also, upon signing this document I asked how the equipment would eventually become mine with it being a Hire Agreement. They said I will be offered the equipment prior to my final monthly payment and informed once the final payment is made the equipment will be mine!

I think this is quite dubious now but at the time I was a lot more naive.

Why was I not just given a HP agreement? Will this help me in court?

 

Thanks again!

Edited by chez262
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