Nationwide taking me to court.HELP.

[out of cash]

hi again tomterm8,

 

attachment is the only type of termination i got from them.

 

regards

 

out of cash

nationwide termination.zip

[tomterm8]

Your CCA is not enforceable.

[out of cash]

hi tomterm8,

thats great news indeed:D

 

what about my default notice the extra 4k they have added can i make some kind of counter claim against them for this if they are going to be so stupid to proceed to court???

[tomterm8]

hi tomterm8,

thats great news indeed:D

 

what about my default notice the extra 4k they have added can i make some kind of counter claim against them for this if they are going to be so stupid to proceed to court???

 

If i were you I would send the following letter to their soliciter, special delivery.

 

"Dear Sir,

 

RE: NOTICE TO RECTIFY DATA.

 

I note that you have disclosed information to several third parties (the "credit reference agencies") which is incorrect. I have not defaulted or made late payments on any enforceable credit agreement whatsoever.

 

I therefore require you to investigate this matter, and to correct this inacurate data forthwith.

 

Please regard this as a legal notice under the Data protection Act 1998 and a letter before action under the civil procedure rules.

 

Yours Sincerly,

 

XXX".

 

Then we will do a three pronged attack:

 

* Counter claims under DPA, Human Rights Act 1998 and various torts.

 

* counter claim of un just enrichment.

[out of cash]

hi tomterm,

 

ive just noted a small thing when they say i have made a recent payment of £1 to the account which is the £1 for the cca request. if the information in their claim is incorrect do you know how i stand legally speaking because as i have had so much hassle with these i would really like to whack them if you understand me;)

[out of cash]

RE: NOTICE TO RECTIFY DATA.

 

i read throgh the stuff on the data protection you suggested that seems really heavy would you advise this as i am nowhere near as well up on the legal side of things as yourself tomterm

[tomterm8]

RE: NOTICE TO RECTIFY DATA.

 

i read throgh the stuff on the data protection you suggested that seems really heavy would you advise this as i am nowhere near as well up on the legal side of things as yourself tomterm

 

I would advise you to send the letter ... you are under no obligation to actually do anything about it if you don't want to, but it enables you to have a counter claim latter on if you want one.

[NitrousOxide]

Hi,

Tomterm correct me but, I can't find any provision for adding the interest on?

[tomterm8]

As requested:

 

Defence

 

 

1. I deny all allegations put by the claimant in their particulars of claim, and put them to strict proof on each allegation.

 

Circumstances surrounding the case

 

2. No notice of the intent by the claimant to pursue a legal action was received before the claimant commenced such action, neither was adequate information to investigate the claim provided by the claimant. I respectfully request that the court considers these issues when it comes to awarding costs.

 

3. I object that the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4 The defendant has served upon the Claimants solicitors by recorded delivery a letter dated DATE requesting clarification and disclosure under the Civil Procedure Rules. This letter has not been acknowledged neither has the information been disclosed, (A copy of this letter has been attached). The defendant is therefore unable to file a fully particularised defence or a counter claim while this default continues. I therefore respectfully ask the permission of the court to amend my case, if and when I receive this information.

 

5. No termination notice has ever been received by me; however a default notice was received by me on DATE. This default notice contained an amount that was incorrect as the repayment amount, and is therefore void. The claimant is therefore precluded from issuing legal action since it has not abided by the requirements of s88-89 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Denial of Liability

 

6. I deny that I owe any money as alleged in the claimants particular of claims, or at all. In respect of that which I deny:

 

7. On DATE, I send by recorded delivery a request under the consumer credit act 1974 for a copy of the credit agreement, which the claimant replied to with a document which the Claimant has stated is the credit agreements in respect of the debt, a claim to which they are bound by virtue of s172 of the consumer credit act 1974.

 

8. It is clear that the document provided is a pre-contractual documents applying for credit from the claimant. Under s59(1) it appears that such agreements are void. It is therefore denied that these alleged credit agreements are valid for the purposes of enforcement by the courts.

 

9. In respect of that which is denied:

 

10. It is respectfully submitted that these agreements are improperly executed because

(a)they do not, amongst other things, contain the creditors’ signatures and are not correctly dated,*

(b) not all terms in the agreement are legible (since several terms have been rendered illegible by a mechanical stamp)

©, the agreement contains information about the applicant that is not found in a properly executed agreement and

(d) they are not in the prescribed format set out in under The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.

 

11. The agreement was made before section 15 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 came into force. Therefore, by way of schedule 3, s11 of the consumer credit act 2006, those sections otherwise repealed by the Consumer Credit Act 2006 section 15 remain in force.

 

12. Consequently, the court is precluded from issuing an enforcement order ( e.g.Wilson and others v. Secretary of State for Trade and Industry [2003] UKHL 40 ) by way of s. 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, since these documents do not contain all the prescribed terms defined in under the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, these being defined by Reg 6(1) as being specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) .

 

13. The omitted terms including Credit Limit, Rate of interest, and Payment terms under the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 schedule 6.

 

14. Accordingly, the Defendant does not know the case it has to meet and the Particulars of Claim neither disclose any cause of action with any reasonable prospect of success and/or are an abuse of the process of this Court and, in compliance with the Civil Procedure Rules can and should be struck out pursuant to part 3.4 of the same. Furthermore, the Defendant contends that the Claimant’s conduct in issuing the claim is vexatious and amounts to unlawful harassment pursuant to section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

 

15. In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.

 

16. Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph's 4 and 5 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

 

 

*delete as appropriate

[out of cash]

hi all,

 

have a real problem here sent cca to creditor which they supplied a copy of agreement with different dates and have copied and pasted my sig from another document cheque/application dont know which but the strange thing with this is i have a copy of cca agreement the sig and dates are different from the orig.also no terms and conditions which are on reverse side of orig copy

 

should the copy be exactly that a true copy of original it has all prescibed terms but the sig on the copy is not the one i signed on the original doc so although its my sig they have definitely taken it from another doc is this fraud? £20K LOAN

 

any help would be most welcom.

 

best regards

 

out of cash

[vogelrok]

i would think it is fraud. if we was to do it it would be classed as so in a court of law.

 

i would think as long as you are clearing your debts, which i believe we are all trying to do and sort payments back for the correct amount to the correct people.

 

you would be able to have them done for fraud. if how ever you are trying to dispute the credit agreement then it would be damn hard to prove as you have the original. which wouldnt be fare to dispute it really. if you was trying to prove fraud.

[surprise]

You could take the original to the Police along with the one they've sent you and tell them you found it when you were looking for another agreement. Otherwise your local TS see what they say.

[Goldlady]

I have posted a link to this onto one of the CCA threads. This is very interesting and I suspect the DCA will be in serious trouble:D I guess I would forge an agreement for 20K;)

[Josie8]

The FraudAct2006. The Act creates a new general offence of fraud with three ways of committing it:

• Fraud by false representation
  
• Fraud by failing to disclose information, and
  
• Fraud by abuse of position
  
• Fraud must give a gain of money or property

• false representation, they have sent you a reconstituted agreement which is not a copy of your original agreement and appended a fraudulent signature
  
• failing to disclose. They have failed to disclose they have no genuine agreement.
   
  In 1 and 2 above the gain to them would be to 'con' you into making payments.

Fraud by false representation

 

 

1 Fraud

(1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).

(2) The sections are-

(a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),

(b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information), and

© section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).

(3) A person who is guilty of fraud is liable-

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).

 

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and

(b) intends, by making the representation-

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A representation is false if-

(a) it is untrue or misleading, and

(b) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

(3) "Representation" means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of-

(a) the person making the representation, or

(b) any other person.

(4) A representation may be express or implied.

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

 

If they mislead you into paying a debt which the know is unenforceable they could be guilty of the criminal offence of fraud as follows:

 

 

 

 

The Fraud Act is small as it contains only 16 sections plus 3 schedules.

 

 

All Theft Act deception offences are abolished to be replaced by 3 new fraud offences: fraud by misrepresentation.......f raud by failing to disclose information and fraud by abuse of position..

 

 

Under section 1 a person is guilty of fraud if they are in breach of any offences in sections 2,3,4.

 

 

Under Section 2 representation must be made dishonestly which is established under the two-stage test as set out in Rv Gosh (1982) QB 1053, 75 Cr App R 154 in which the defendant was dishonest by the standards of ordinary people

 

 

Subsection (1)(b) requires that the representation is made with the intention of making a gain for himself or causing a loss or risk of loss to another. Loss and gain are defined in section 5 as being money or property

 

 

Section 3: Fraud by failing to disclose information

 

18. Section 3 makes it an offence to commit fraud by failing to disclose information to another person where there is a legal duty to disclose the information. A legal duty to disclose information may include duties under oral contracts as well as written contracts. The concept of "legal duty" is explained in the Law Commission's Report on Fraud, which said at paragraphs 7.28 and 7.29:

• "7.28 ..Such a duty may derive from statute (such as the provisions governing company prospectuses), from the fact that the transaction in question is one of the utmost good faith (such as a contract of insurance), from the express or implied terms of a contract, from the custom of a particular trade or market, or from the existence of a fiduciary relationship between the parties (such as that of agent and principal).

7.29 For this purpose there is a legal duty to disclose information not only if the defendant's failure to disclose it gives the victim a cause of action for damages, but also if the law gives the victim a right to set aside any change in his or her legal position to which he or she may consent as a result of the non-disclosure. For example, a person in a fiduciary position has a duty to disclose material information when entering into a contract with his or her beneficiary, in the sense that a failure to make such disclosure will entitle the beneficiary to rescind the contract and to reclaim any property transferred under it."

• More specifically, section 3 states:
  
• 3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

• 
  

  A person is in breach of this section if he-

  
  

  
  

  • (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
    
  • (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information-
    
  • (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

   

   

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss

 

 

 

Gain and Loss Specified

 

 

 

 

5 "Gain" and "loss"

 

 

 

(1) The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance with this section.

 

 

 

 

(2) "Gain" and "loss"-

 

 

• (a) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;

• (b) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;

Also a 'true' copy is only 'true' if it's signed

Go visit the local Rozzers in the Fraud Squad with a copy of the above...........................

[Hippy-chick]

 

Erm ....

 

What are you saying here? I'd be very careful about admitting I had a copy of the original agreement if I were you.

 

Not meaning to have a go at you - but you can surely see the problem with admitting this? If they are wrongfully copying and pasting your signature, I think you need to prove this by other means.

[out of cash]

hi hippychick,

 

many thanks for you reply i have re worded my statement i have a copy of original agreement .bottom line with me is cant afford to pay this back

so as they liked kicking me when i was down the boot will be on my other foot for these now:D

 

best regards

 

out of cash

[out of cash]

hi josie,

 

many thanks for the tech info regarding fraud it was much appreciated this could be a really nasty battle as i dont think i could afford a lawyer.

 

best regards

 

out of cash

[paulwlton]

 

Can i ask who is the creditor?

[tomterm8]

can I ask, is the content of both agreements the same?

 

Can you, perhapse, post them both up (minus personal details)

[MikeSplicer]

subbing

[The GodMother]

ok this does sound like fraud as it you have been 'supplyed' with 2 differnt copys of the same agreemnet and you can prove that the signature on one is copy and pasted and the dates are different then i would advise to to take a trip to your local police station and as the speak to the fraud prevention officer there as s/he should be able to help you. I would also suggest that you take some free legal advice of the law societyor law center. My other piece of advice is to take down a few notes or bullet pionts and tring your local trading standards office.

 

do have a few suggestions on bullet points you should make.

 

1) they sent you two different copies of your credit agreement, A copy of the originaland one that you think is fraud. (buy this i mean the one u found and the one they sent u )

2) dates are different. make sure you give them as much info on this as possible.

3) how, if they are other than what is stated above, each document is different. eg document 1 is titled credit argeement document 2 is titlrd your credit agreement.

4) also make it clear to them that you are willing to provide copies of all documentation and make it clear that you have got the police involved. Trading standard would be ablee to help u further.

 

dont panic and dont worry you are in good hands on this site.

[rhsymonds]

I wouldnt let on you have the original, but ask them to provide another copy of the original document (making it clear that this looks like a cut and paste job).

 

Anyone with half a brain will realise that what they have done is illegal, and they have in essence, forged your signature on a legal document.

 

Check statements for dates, and anything that doesnt add up should be put in a letter to them, telling them you will not pay until they admit what they have done.

 

If they have been reduced to these measures, id be pretty sure they dont have the original 'true' copy and therefore havent got a leg to stand on (keep your copy quiet, or better destroy it and keep a scanned copy on your pc for emergencies)

 

Good luck

[oneofakind]

Is the dodgy signature yours, cut and pasted from something else, or is it obviously wrong?

[MikeSplicer]

better destroy it and keep a scanned copy on your pc for emergencies)

 

Good luck

 

I wouldn't destroy it it maybe useful later and keeping a scanned copy is less secure than keeping the original.

 

If it comes out that this particular company are bodgeing together agreements from bits of other documents this could lead to all people previously issued CCA's becoming invalid.

 

Maybe somebody on here may want to buddy up with you and take this as far as it can go.

 

It goes to show just how desperate they are becoming and may be the proof needed to show just how bad this has got.

[Goldlady]

Outofcash your PM inbox is full.