SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[Number6]

Is that the Natural Enviroment Research Council ?

 

Natural Environment & Rural Communities Act 2006

 

Pete, ...errr.. Bruce.... errr..... whomever!

[kateandpete]

Wow. That'll teach me to go to bed early! Well done Bruce (and second Bruce). Perhaps this information needs to go into an FAQ or Statutes section so people know what to do when companies try this one.

 

I would like to allege in my letter that HSBC are willfully misleading me. Is this a dangerous thing to do, seeing as I could not prove it? I would think the balance of probability is on my side though as they are the worlds second largest bank and can afford to know the law.

[clint1974]

Is there a FAQ/step by step about this? If so can someone provide a link. I am hoping to send Barclaycard, BlackHorse, and Northern Rock a CCA request.

[tamadus]

Natural Environment & Rural Communities Act 2006

 

Pete, ...errr.. Bruce.... errr..... whomever!

 

I was close

 

ooooh I have a copy of Si 1983/1557 just arrived which has now made me late fro work but I dont care after seeing this

 

Peter (or was it Bruce ) is perfectly correct and I dont need to see SI1983/1569 to say that.SI 1557 ONLY applies where copies of documents are sent pre-contract as part of the cancellation rights.

 

IT specifically covers the format of cancellation documents (and copies) where sections 62,63,64, 68,58, 82 and 85 are concerned. Section 77/78 asre NOT covered by SI 1557.

 

I'll post the details regarding sec 85 later but its nothing to worry about;-)

[tamadus]

Wow. That'll teach me to go to bed early! Well done Bruce (and second Bruce). Perhaps this information needs to go into an FAQ or Statutes section so people know what to do when companies try this one.

 

I would like to allege in my letter that HSBC are willfully misleading me. Is this a dangerous thing to do, seeing as I could not prove it? I would think the balance of probability is on my side though as they are the worlds second largest bank and can afford to know the law.

 

IMHO Bruce (or is that Pete) ( or maybe even Kate) I believe HSBC are willfully misleading you. Having read this SI quickly there is no doubt in my mind that it only applies where copies of documents are supplied as part of the right of cancellation and therefore only applies to new agreements. Existing agreement are NOT covered by it.

 

Therefore to quote this SI as a reason for not supplying a copy of the executed agreement under a section 77/78 request is blatant misleading.

 

I am tempted now to contact the Law Society, if I had a solicitors name I would register a complaint about him/her deliberately telling mistruths to mislead and confuse.

 

Bruce

[Number6]

 

I would like to allege in my letter that HSBC are willfully misleading me. Is this a dangerous thing to do, seeing as I could not prove it? I would think the balance of probability is on my side though as they are the worlds second largest bank and can afford to know the law.

 

I would not personally allege that anyone is guilty of any crime, that's for a judge to decide.

 

Rather I would write along the lines of:

 

I do not agree with your interpretation of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. I believe that these regulations apply to pre-contractual documents or document copies issued by the creditor in the immediate aftermath of a credit agreement under the control of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (the Act) Sections 58,62, 63 and 64.

 

Sections 77 and 78 of the Act are not bound by the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983; any request under Sections 77 and 78 of the Act can only be fulfilled with a copy of the fully and properly executed agreement conforming to Section 61 of the Act.

 

I am surprised that HSBC, with all it's legal resources is unaware of the applicability of the various sections of the Act and associated regulations especially as a high proportion of HSBC's business in the UK is regulated by the Act! I am assuming of course that this is a genuine error on your part and not a willful attempt to mislead me which of course would be a serious offence.

 

I therefore await your full and proper response to my Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 78 request. I posted this to you on ______ and I deemed it to have been received by HSBC on ________ (2 days later). You therefore have until _____ to respond.

 

Something like that anyway should do the trick.

 

The original Bruce

[tamadus]

Is there a FAQ/step by step about this? If so can someone provide a link. I am hoping to send Barclaycard, BlackHorse, and Northern Rock a CCA request.

 

There is a template letter for making a section 77/78 request. A lot of thsi discussion is to counter claims for not supplying the agreement under that request under SI1983/1557. I have posted above a possible response if the company does try using this.

 

No FAQ or sticky yet but I expect it will come soon.

[tamadus]

I would not personally allege that anyone is guilty of any crime, that's for a judge to decide.

 

Rather I would write along the lines of:

 

 

 

Something like that anyway should do the trick.

 

The original Bruce

 

Much better

[Number6]

Much better

 

Thank you good sir

 

I would of course also be pointing out in my letter that the clock is still ticking from the date of the original request to HSBC under S78.... (12 working days + 2 then one month = criminal default) . There will be no time extension just because HSBC "misunderstood" the regulations!!

 

The original Bruce

[sam19677]

I can not thank you all enough. You are brilliant. Thank you xx

[Number6]

I can not thank you all enough. You are brilliant. Thank you xx

 

Thanks Sam.

 

We are here to help each other; each of us alone would never have got so far but by putting our heads together we can outthink any organisation! 8-)

 

Pete

[pugsley]

I can not thank you all enough. You are brilliant. Thank you xx

 

I agree totally...... all pasted into word now ready for a response yipee I love this forum:D:D!

[Peterbard]

Coments and rewrites on the suggested draft I posted above are welcome

 

That seems to be just the ticket. Lets hope there are no other devious little suprises up their sleves.

Yes i did spend a good amount of time in the library just goes to show in the age of the internet sometimes you just have to hit the books for an answer.

Cheers Peter

[tamadus]

Coments and rewrites on the suggested draft I posted above are welcome

 

That seems to be just the ticket. Lets hope there are no other devious little suprises up their sleves.

Yes i did spend a good amount of time in the library just goes to show in the age of the internet sometimes you just have to hit the books for an answer.

Cheers Peter

 

A devious little surprise could be coming later this evening after I have chance to talk to a couple of people. Peter can you check and respond to your PM's please.

 

In the meantime everyone please hold fire, something has come to my attention an hour ago and I need to thoroughly check its validity.

[un1boy]

OK Tam, cool.......can't wait for your reply!!

[kateandpete]

A devious little surprise could be coming later this evening after I have chance to talk to a couple of people. Peter can you check and respond to your PM's please.

 

In the meantime everyone please hold fire, something has come to my attention an hour ago and I need to thoroughly check its validity.

Holy smoke.

My nipples explode with delight :o.

[noomill060]

indeed.

[tamadus]

Holy smoke.

My nipples explode with delight :o.

 

I'm hoping thats not Kate/Bruce with exploding nipples lmao

 

Imagine the devestation :o

[noomill060]

What to make of this? More nonsense from Trading Standards?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/41241-according-fsa-no-need.html

[ppauls150]

Well Firstly it is getting harder and harder to keep up the reading with you guys with the fasts posts but nice work and good job done on finding the right info to stick this back to them.

 

Not that it really does matter but i thought i might put a two pence piece worth in, I have today been working for a company which i probably should not mention on here, but what they do is they collect all the boxes from companies that want information and documents and relevant other information that they need to keep and put it in their big storage depot which every box has a keep date on them and after that keep date the paperwork then gets distroyed by the company. Basically it is all the stuff that companies want archived for future reference and in this one warehouse also was over 98000 boxes all containing data and personel records.

 

So it does look like that yes maybe a lot of companies do keep the relevant files but looking at this warehouse i think it is more hassle than it is worth, to start looking for documents that might be relevant.

[noomill060]

From zootscoot: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/39501-cca-request-help.html

 

Re: CCA Request - Help!

 

Quote:

 

Technically true, but they cannot enforce it in a court of law.

 

 

Yes they can but they can not sue on the contract. They can bring an action in the law of restitution which is a claim outside the law of contract or CCA. This is based on unjust enrichment.

 

 

Quote:

 

So it means i would have to pay the full amount immediately?! Could someone explain in a wee bit more detail

 

 

If you make a credit agreement unenforceable by making a CCA request. The agreement ie relating to terms and conditions such as date of payment, unterest rate etc is unenforceable but the debt remains. You have had the money and have not given anything in return. Therefore the money is still in law regarded as belonging to the creditor. With out the agreement in place allowing for monthly payments the creditor can request this money at any time. You may be able to negotiate a new payment arrangement.

 

YIKES!

[noomill060]

Good post ppauls150. I was wondering where all that bumf went!

 

Their warehouse full of old bits of paper which may or may not be important sounds like the shoebox where I keep all my bits of old paper which may or may not be important!

[Falkirk1298]

From zootscoot: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/39501-cca-request-help.html

 

Re: CCA Request - Help!

 

Quote:

 

Technically true, but they cannot enforce it in a court of law.

 

 

Yes they can but they can not sue on the contract. They can bring an action in the law of restitution which is a claim outside the law of contract or CCA. This is based on unjust enrichment.

 

 

Quote:

 

So it means i would have to pay the full amount immediately?! Could someone explain in a wee bit more detail

 

 

If you make a credit agreement unenforceable by making a CCA request. The agreement ie relating to terms and conditions such as date of payment, unterest rate etc is unenforceable but the debt remains. You have had the money and have not given anything in return. Therefore the money is still in law regarded as belonging to the creditor. With out the agreement in place allowing for monthly payments the creditor can request this money at any time. You may be able to negotiate a new payment arrangement.

 

YIKES!

 

Possibly, but picture the situation:

 

The bank trundle you into court and tell the judge that you owe them 2 grand and won’t pay it back. They concede that they have not conformed to the CCA and try to use the argument above.

 

The judge looks at the bank solicitor over the top of his specs and says “That’s all well and good Mr Barclay-Lloyd. Can you provide the court with evidence that this debt exists, like a properly executed credit agreement under the terms of the CCA 1974?”

[Falkirk1298]

Well Firstly it is getting harder and harder to keep up the reading with you guys with the fasts posts but nice work and good job done on finding the right info to stick this back to them.

 

Not that it really does matter but i thought i might put a two pence piece worth in, I have today been working for a company which i probably should not mention on here, but what they do is they collect all the boxes from companies that want information and documents and relevant other information that they need to keep and put it in their big storage depot which every box has a keep date on them and after that keep date the paperwork then gets distroyed by the company. Basically it is all the stuff that companies want archived for future reference and in this one warehouse also was over 98000 boxes all containing data and personel records.

 

So it does look like that yes maybe a lot of companies do keep the relevant files but looking at this warehouse i think it is more hassle than it is worth, to start looking for documents that might be relevant.

 

I'm sure your experience illustrates part of the problem for the banks. The other, in my humble opinion, is that the banks are reaping the rewards of years of cost cutting and "streamlining". They just don't have the staff to handle these sorts of clerical tasks inside the very tight timeframes the DPA and CCA allow them, and their paperwork workload must be multiplying nicely by now!

[noomill060]

falkirk- How did you get on with your own CCA request? Any sudden demands for the full amount owed or did they just quietly roll over?