SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[alanfromderby]

It looks like we are dealing with two separate documents. The SI 1553 (1983) document was quoted elsewhere on the forum, and was used by a DCA as the basis of why they didn't need to provide the original document.

 

My reading of it is that they still have to provide a true copy of the original - whether they block the signature or not.

 

To me, it would make me very suspicious of any document supplied under these circumstances where parts had been hidden. Having said that, in many respects this is a red herring, as no court would accept such a doctored document as proof of a contract.

 

My feeling is that this has more to do with the DCA, or whoever has been sent the CCA, trying to avoid having committed an offence.

[Number6]

Then I can't help any further I'm afraid.

 

I have searched for the SI you quoted and can find lots of oblique references to it but not the document itself. It's prior to the earliest date that opsi would have a copy so the only chances are to find another website that happens to have a copy posted or to buy it from HMSO.

 

Pete

[Number6]

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy:

 

"SNIP>>>"

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

"SNIP>>>"

 

I've been thinking about this and surely the logical conclusion is this cannot be right....??

 

If the copy they send you does not show your signature or the date of signing then how can anyone prove the agreement relates to you? It just doesn't make sense. Does it??

 

This has to be referring to an unexecuted agreement.

 

Pete

[noomill060]

Indeed. Otherwise, we could all just send demands to anyone for money to be repaid for which non existed loans. This was the type of sharp practice that the CCA was intended to protect consumers from.

[noomill060]

(I'll try that again, in English this time.)

 

Indeed. Otherwise, we could all just send demands to anyone at random, for money to be repaid under loan agreements which did not exist.

 

This was the type of sharp practice that the CCA was intended to protect consumers from.

[ppauls150]

Is this the post that you are talking about where they have said under these such rules that they dont have to issue the executed document? here it is if this is the one.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-304863.html

[ppauls150]

I enclose a copy of Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. As you can see this regulation does apply to copies of executed agreements as well as unexecuted agreements. In the circumstance the Bank has complied with section 78(1).

Now as i read this in a way yes they are correct but they are only correct in the context that if you didnt take the loan application offer up then they will have an unexecuted copy because how can any company give you loans or credit without you actually signing for anything and if you have signed for anything then surely the part of this regulation is the part of an executed agreement as opposed to the unexecuted agreement.

 

Surely an unexecuted agreement is what it says on the tin something that is not taken up so therefore never gone ahead with the agreement no?

 

Bee all and end all this is just a simple smokescreen on trying to use the law and like you say the regulations like this are there to make sure proceedures are followed and to protect the consumer.

 

Just like someone said why dont we just make up an unexecuted agreement and put some figures down and so forth and send them to the companies and say you have loaned them money and this unexecuted agreement proves such? Do you reckon it would hold up in court? I don't think so.

[ppauls150]

Infact i have loaned £15,000 to this company and they have missed the first three payments of the loan so i have issued the default letter on them and they havent responded at all so now i am taking them to court to issue a CCJ and will show the judge the Unexecuted copy of the agreement, I dont need anything else do i, Like a copy of the default or the executed copy ?

 

ppauls150 Finance Ltd AgeementNo. 123456789 Version No.020

 

Ppauls150 22 Legs Eleven Avenue London ME12 3AB

 

FIXED-SUM LOAN AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 SECURED ON

 

THE BORROWERS(S) ADDRESS OF BORROWERS(S) Lloyds TSB

1 Lloyds TSB Service Recovery Centre

2 125 Colmore Row

3 Birmingham

4 B3 3SF

 

 

 

PERSONAL LOAN

KEY ANANCIAL INFORMATION Amount of Credit

Minimum Duration of this Ageement; 120 months'

Total Amount Payable ((A) + (D))' (B) I £ 29,839.201

~ Monthly Repayments' starting on I lor, if no date is shown, on

the date which is 01 month(s) after the date on which we sign this Agreement:

subsequent Monthly Repayments are payable on the same date in each month (but see clause 3.2) until the Amount of Credit and interest are paid in full.

Amount of Monthly Repayment © I £ 248.661

IAPR 16.91 %

 

(A) I £ 15,000.00 I

 

OTHER FINANCIAL INFORMATION

Total Charge for Credit' (0) I £ 14,839.201

Interest Rate ~ % per month

Interest will be calculated on the daily balance outstanding on the Account and applied to the Account monthly (see clause 4).

 

A payment of less than the amounts due will be applied in the proportion which those amounts bear to each other, unless you tell us otherwise.

 

 

 

 

PAYMENT PROTECTION PLAN

KEY FINANCIAL INFORMATION Amount of Credit

Minimum Duration of this A~ment; 120 months'

Total Amount Payable (E) + (H))' (F) I £ 0.00 I

~ Monthly Repayments' starting on I lor, if no date is shown, on

the date which is 01 month(s) after the date on which we sign this A~eement:

subsequent Monthly Repayments are payable on the same date in each month (but see clause 3.2) until the Amount of Credit and interest are paid in full. Amount of Monthly Repayment (G) I £ 0.00 I

IAPR 0.01 %

 

0.001

 

OTHER FINANCIAL INFORMATION

Optional Payment Protection Plan - Total Cash Price

Total Charge for Credit'

Interest Rate I 0.000 I% per month

Interest will be calculated on the daily balance outstanding on the Account and applied to the Account monthly (see clause 4).

A payment of less than the amounts due will be applied in the proportion which those amounts bear to each other, unless you tell us otherwise.

 

(H)

 

0.001 0.001

 

KEY INFORMATION

All amou~ayable under or as a result of this Agreement will be secured by a second or subsequent mortgage over the Property (see Address of Borrower(s) above) by way of (if this box is

crossed)~ a new mortgage with us or (if this box is crossed)D an existing mortgage with us dated I I

If we do not receive an amount due from you by its due date we may charge you fees of £25 or £30 whilst you are in arrears. If you pay us by cheque and this is unpaid we may charge you £15. You must pay our reasonable costs and legal expenses in making you keep to this Agreement. See clause 6. Clauses 3.3 and 5 provide for other charges.

 

The amount payable if you exercise your right to settle this part of the Agreement relating to The amount payable if you exercise your right to settle this part of the A~eement relating to the Personal Loan o!,_the date when a quarter of the term elapses would be I £ 13,672.521 the Payment Protection Plan on the date when a quarter of the term elapses would be

when half elapses [ £ 10,796.221 and when three quarters elapses~35.351 . 1£ 0.00 i when half elapses I £ 0.00 I al,d wilen three quarters ~Iapses

In calculating these amounts, no account has been taken of any variation which might occur 1£ 0.00 I. In calculating these amounts, no account has been taken of any variation

under this Al!I"eement and amounts shown are accordim!lv onlv illustrative. which might occur under this Agreement and amounts shown are accordingly only illustrative.

MISSING PAYMENTS - Missing payments could have severe consequences and make obtaining credit more difficult.

YOUR HOME MAY BE REPOSSESSED, Your home may be reposessed if you do not keep up repayments on a mortgage or other debt secured on it.

IMPORTANT· READ THIS CAREFULLY TO FIND OUT ABOUT YOUR RIGHTS

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 lays down certain requirements for your protection which should have been complied with when this agreement was made. If they were not, we cannot enforce this a~eement without getting a court order.

The Act also gives you a number of rights:

1) You can settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off the amount you owe under the a~eement which may be reduced by a rebate. Examples

indicating the amount you have to pay appear in the agreement.

2) If you received unsatisfactory goods or services paid for under this agreement, apart from any bought with a cash loan, you may have the right to sue the supplier, us or both.

3) If the contract is not fulfilled, perhaps because the supplier has gone out of business, you may still be able to sue us.

If you would like to know more about your rights under the Act, contact either your local Trading Standards Department or your nearest Citizens' Advice Bureau.

 

YOUR RIGHTS - Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, you should have been given a copy of this agreement at least seven days ago so you could consider whether you wanted to go ahead. If we did not give you a copy of this agreement we can only enforce it with a court order.

 

This is a Credit A~ment r~l.ated ~-COl1sl.!.~er Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

Signature(s) of Borrower(s)

 

Important - Use of your information

· You have a right to know how we will use your personal information. Please read the 'Use of your information' notice on Page 2 before you sign.

· We may send you information about products of ours and others which may be of interest to you. We may pass your details to other selected businesses to send you information about their products. You have a right at any time to ask us not to contact you or give your details to others for these purposes or not to telephone you for sales purposes. You may write to our Customer Care Department at the above address if you wish us to stop.

 

Amount of Credit (A) above to be applied:

1. In settlement of account(s) with us (if any) numbered:

I 368518625 I

2. Subject to the deduction referred to in 1 above (if any) the Amount of Credit (A) shown above shall be paid to, or as directed by you.

 

I wish to purchase Optional Payment Protection Plan 0 Borrower

Level of Cover I

Second Named Borrower/Additional Named Person

Surname Forename

I II

 

Date of Birth

II

 

~of~1 I

I understand that I am purchasing the product(s) ticked above on credit provided by you and that the terms relating to the credit for the products can be found in each of the terms in this a~eement.

Your signature(s) ................................................................................................................................ .

 

 

 

Total Monthly Repayment (ie © + (G)) is

 

£

 

248.66

 

, The Minimum Duration of this A~eement, the number of Monthly Repayments, the Total Amount Payable and the Total Charge for Credit are calculated on the assumption that all Monthly Repayments are made on their due date and you do not take a payment break (see clause 3.2).

 

I Signature on our behalf 2807

PSL034 (l-B)

 

PAYMENT PROTECTION PLAN

Cover under the policy is available to the Borrower and either the Second Named Borrower or (if there is no Second Named Borrower) in respect of the Additional Named Person (if any) whose details are given above. You must ensure that you are entitled to disclose the information given about any Additional Named Person to us.

 

Date of Agreement

 

Borrower's First Copy

 

Scheme number

[noomill060]

I am taking Sainsbury's, Boots the Chemists and British Petroleum to court for a thousand squillion pounds each, just 'cos I think I can, 'cos all I need is a copy of an unexecuted agreement.

 

Naturally the court will believe everything I say at face value, because under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, I dont actually need to prove anything whatsoever.

 

Woo Hoo! Next up is the phone book trick. Pick ten names at random and send them demands for payment as well, then take them to court as well.

 

Sorry, thats a load of BLX and just a legalistic smokescreen to hind behind. I note they also say that their default charges are also legal. Just because they say something is legal doesnt mean it is.

 

Apparently Iraq was also invaded legally.

[noomill060]

ppauls150 Finance Ltd

A financial organisation of undoubted credibility, long established track record of fiduciary excellence and fiscal integratey.

"Looking out for fools and their money"

[noomill060]

Have a look at this regarding default removal.

 

Remove Default Notices on a Credit File - We show you how

[kateandpete]

Alright children stop taking the ****;-). I've already challenged them on this in a letter. Please take a look at my entire thread....

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24736-default-removal-katenandpete-hsbc.html

 

The fact is I have this regulation in hi-res black and white from their legal team.

 

I agree the implications are ridiculous but cannot find anything to show that they're wrong. They've wrongfooted me at the moment. However if I find that they are deliberately misleading me, I'm going to lay into them with hellfire and fury.

[ppauls150]

ppauls150 Finance Ltd

 

A financial organisation of undoubted credibility, long established track record of fiduciary excellence and fiscal integratey.

 

"Looking out for fools and their money"

 

glad to see you know it anyone else want a loan from ppauls150 Finance Ltd, I will do you a special deal, just leave me your name and i will send you a copy of the unexecuted copy also LOL

[Number6]

Alright children stop taking the ****;-). I've already challenged them on this in a letter. Please take a look at my entire thread....

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24736-default-removal-katenandpete-hsbc.html

 

The fact is I have this regulation in hi-res black and white from their legal team.

 

I agree the implications are ridiculous but cannot find anything to show that they're wrong. They've wrongfooted me at the moment. However if I find that they are deliberately misleading me, I'm going to lay into them with hellfire and fury.

 

Just to clarify, this is the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations that wer're all talking about?

 

If it is then what have you actually got from HSBC? You say it's a hi-res scan but of what? Is it a copy of the banks own paperwork or of the Act itself? Ask a Mod to upload the image file you've received onto here so we can all see what they're talking about??

 

Because according to the OFT regulation 3 only applies to unexecuted agreements.

 

If we're talking about a different act then what Act is it?

 

If all else fails then I'll get a copy of the relevant Acts ordered from the local library, or failing that I have a solicitor friend who I'm sure would be able to lay hands on a copy - he's away till Thursday though.

 

Logically it seems to me to be total B****x that a company can wave an unsigned, undated piece of generic paperwork at you and say "this document says tou owe us a squillion quid mush, so pay up or else!" It's just not logical

 

Pete

[kateandpete]

Just to clarify, this is the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations that wer're all talking about?

Yep. The 1983 ones.

If it is then what have you actually got from HSBC? You say it's a hi-res scan but of what? Is it a copy of the banks own paperwork or of the Act itself?

hi-res - that was just me being facetious .

The letter they sent me said, "I enclose a copy of the regulation". There was a seperate sheet upon which was written (by them) the wording of the regulation. They are presenting this to me as current legislation. It does mention the word "executed".

Because according to the OFT regulation 3 only applies to unexecuted agreements.

Yes, I've read that. But only in their FAQ's. I'd like to look at the SI itself (and subsequent ones). That would REALLY count as "hi-res black and white" .

If all else fails then I'll get a copy of the relevant Acts ordered from the local library

I guess it should really be me doing that. After all It has a bearing on my case.

Logically it seems to me to be total B****x that a company can wave an unsigned, undated piece of generic paperwork at you and say "this document says tou owe us a squillion quid mush, so pay up or else!" It's just not logical

 

Pete

Too bloody right. If they are correct, then this is crying out to be challenged. Surely it ain't compatible with common law. Let alone common sense.

[tamadus]

This could have a bearing on a lot of people so I'll try and get a copy as well.

[Number6]

Would the local OFT have, or be able to get hold of a copy?

 

Pete

[sam19677]

My sister-in-law(whom I'm helping) has had a letter in reply to her asking for her Agreement under section 78 from JD Williams catolouge It says

"I would refer you to regulations 3 (2) (b) of the CC (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983 In it you will see that there is no requirement to provide a photocopy of the agreement bearing your signature: it is sufficient that we supply details of the terms and conditions to which you agreed". I think this is what the banks etc are starting to fight back with.

[tamadus]

I found the 1988 revisions but that looks to only give details for cancellation notices.

[Number6]

Have a look at page 25 of THIS OFT document.

 

Again, what it refers to are copies of unexecuted agreements.

 

This seems to me (but don't quote me, yet!) a philibustering technique by certain banks in order to fob people off. All of the documents I've seen so far only relate to copies given to the customer at the time of, or shortly after the initial signing.

 

Section 77 and 78 of the CCA 1974 clearly relate to executed agreements; an executed agreement must contain the signatures of both the debtor and the creditor. Logic decrees that no unsigned or generic document can possibly prove that you owe anything at all; it's nonsense!

 

Pete

[alanfromderby]

My sister-in-law(whom I'm helping) has had a letter in reply to her asking for her Agreement under section 78 from JD Williams catolouge It says

"I would refer you to regulations 3 (2) (b) of the CC (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983 In it you will see that there is no requirement to provide a photocopy of the agreement bearing your signature: it is sufficient that we supply details of the terms and conditions to which you agreed". I think this is what the banks etc are starting to fight back with.

 

Even if that is the case (and I don't accept that it is), the debt would still be unenforceable without a true copy of the original agreement, complete with signature. A County Court action would be struck-out without such documentary evidence.

[Number6]

OK, follow this logic:

 

CCA 1974 S78(1)

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the

prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to

refer,— SNIP>>>

 

Then look at this quote from the OFT publication "Non-cancellable agreements

Consumer Credit Act 1974"

 

FORM AND CONTENT OF NON-CANCELLABLE AGREEMENTS

To be properly executed, and so legally enforceable without a court order an agreement must be recorded in a document which embodies all its terms, is signed by both trader and customer, and is readily legible when given or sent to the customer for signature.

 

So CCA S78 (& S77) require the lender to provide a copy of the propoerly executed agreement.

 

The OFT says that a properly executed agreement must contain the signatures of debtor and creditor.

 

Ergo a CCA1974 S78 request can only be fulfilled by providing the a copy of the signed agreement... yes?

 

Pete

[Number6]

And in the OFT document "Matters Arising During the Lifetime of an Agreement"

 

Duty to provide information during the lifetime of an agreement at the

request of a customer or surety

 

A customer (or surety if a different person from the customer) has, during the

lifetime of an agreement (whether fixed-sum credit, running-account credit or

hire), the right, to request from the trader concerned:

 

a copies of certain documents, and

 

b a statement of certain information.

 

Any such request from a customer or surety must be in writing and accompanied

by the appropriate fee of £1.

 

In the case of a request from a customer for a copy of a security instrument, it is

sufficient for the trader to supply the copy. No further information need be given.

 

The trader must provide in all other cases copies of the executed agreement (if

any) and of any other document referred to in it. In the case of a request from a

surety, a copy of the security instrument (if any) must be provided in addition.

 

The statement of information by the trader must:

 

be signed by or on behalf of the trader

 

show the information listed below, and

 

be given within 12 working days after receiving a request.

 

Again we see "executed agreement" (= with signatures).

 

Pete

[sam19677]

I've just had a look at the Consumer credit regulations 1983, and the wording of the amendments that came into force in 2004/5. Dos it mean that if you took out a loan pre 2004 you are covered by the 1983 regulations and the companys don't have to supply you with a true copy?

[Number6]

All of these OFT publications can't be wrong.

 

Pete