Guidelines - Requests For An Original Agreement Under The Consumer Credit Act 1974

[Boon72]

As Joncris quoted earlier, have you checked your Terms & Conditions / employment contract to see if there is any mention of preferential staff finance schemes etc?

Unless it is covered under that, The original creditor and RMA are in breach of OFT664, CCA s77/78, breach of your principled rights from their disclosure to RMA (as no agreement exists expressly consenting to the sharing or disclosure of your personal data!)

Have you got it in writing that Barclays acknowledge no agreement exists?

Thats a good start....

 

not really sure about the T&C contract bit but i do have a letter from Barclays stating the follwing - further to your letter of 27th july 07 you applied for the above staff loan on 3rd feb 05. the loan was agree after you had verbally agreed to be bound by the staff loans T&C and therefore no written agreement was issued.

when i left the bank my loan was changed from the staff interest rate to another rate (12% i think) after i didnt get a customer loan as there rate was too high, i just left it there, but again nothing was done in writing

[Goldlady]

Have a look at this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/116201-urgent-help-cca-supplied.html

[rhsymonds]

If CAG was for the law only, and not for personal opinions about 'Moral obligations to pay' and 'do i still owe the money' i bet there wouldnt even be half as many posts.

 

If you dont know the law (which i dont, nor claim to) then dont give people advice on it.

 

The CCA (at least what i read of it) is unenforcable without a signed agreement. Period.

 

No interest, no bailiffs, No nothing.

 

Without your signature on a piece of paper, they cant touch you for anything. How could they ??? Surely that would defeat the whole object of getting a signature in the first place ???

 

Morals dont come into it, this is about a LAW. The fabric of our very society.

 

When you let people break the law and do nothing about it, you are a criminal yourself.

[hsbcfiddled]

The CCA (at least what i read of it) is unenforcable without a signed agreement. Period.

 

No interest, no bailiffs, No nothing.

 

Without your signature on a piece of paper, they cant touch you for anything. How could they ??? Surely that would defeat the whole object of getting a signature in the first place ???

 

Morals dont come into it, this is about a LAW. The fabric of our very society.

 

When you let people break the law and do nothing about it, you are a criminal yourself.

 

 

I agree.

 

No need to pay - dont pay. End of....

 

'Morals?' for people with 'no morals'- I dont think so.

 

I would like to see all these people who work for DCA's etc on the dole.

Better still in jail.

[k1mmie]

Years ago (around 1997) my husband worked for a large company that asked the employees to have a corporate Amex card for expenses. This caused major problems as the company were not always quick enough to pay up and when we struggled at home, we foolishly had to use it for essentials. We soon accrued 2 lots of debt with them each for around £12000 (24000 total). We paid off the first amount and were struglling to make payments with thes second amount. Eventually hubby was unemployed and they got a CCJ, and a charge on property for £10000. This mount is still outstanding and when we moved 6 years ago they applied for a charge on this property and secured that. We have made some minimal payments, but not of late, as with mortgage going up (and arrears), we have no extra finance available. My question is could I still apply for a CCA as the account is obviously still open and in the hands of Amex solicitors (Brachers)? Would they have to hold this info? Would be interested to see what they hold and if this is enforceable. Any advice appreciated. The solicitors keep threatening to go for reposession. Feel like they are hanging over us.

[paulwlton]

A CCA rerquest is valid after judgment.

[lauranick]

Hi guys

Is there a template letter for complaining to OFT/Trading Standards/Financial Ombudsman about non compliance with a CCA request?

[iwannaclearmydebts]

Hi guys

Is there a template letter for complaining to OFT/Trading Standards/Financial Ombudsman about non compliance with a CCA request?

 

Hi lauranick,

 

I've been looking for a template letter too for complaining to TS etc..

 

Hopefully someone will point us in the right direction. You can always count on the people here to come up trumps!!

 

iwcmd.

[car2403]

I don't think there is a template, as each complaint will be unique given the response (or not!) that you have received from the Creditor. The best way to get this advice is to post a thread, if you haven't already, detailing everything that has happened to you in your case then await some expert advice.

 

In these cases, using a template letter may be to your detriment as it won't fully detail your issues with the Creditors reply, IMHO.

 

If you already have an up to date thread, post a link to it here and we'll see if we can "lend a hand" in your compliant construction.

[conar686]

Here's one I prepared earlier

 

Office of Fair Trading

OFT Enquiries

Fleetbank House

2-6 Salisbury Square

London

EC4Y 8JX

 

Date

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I am writing to complain about XXXXXXXXX (other named entities XXXXXXXX), whose business address is XXXXXXXX. In that they have failed to provide me with a properly executed copy of a credit agreement pertaining to the above account number (s).

As is my right under legislation contained within s. 77 (1) and s. 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) 1974 and enclosing the statutory amount of £1 (by Cheque) as payment. I first wrote to XXXXXXXXXX on 19 Feb 07 requesting a copy of the original signed credit agreement in respect of alleged debts with the above referenced account numbers.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxx are obliged to supply these documents, whether they are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

In the time between XXXXXXXX & now this company has done nothing to satisfy my request, rarely responds directly, rather it has DCAs write to me demanding full payment, despite the fact this debt is in dispute & they are prohibited from doing so.

I believe this company have now committed a criminal offence as they have failed to provide a copy of the original signed credit agreement and have been in default for more than one month since the initial 12 working days allowable under the above mentioned legislation expired.

Additionally as they cannot prove that there is an agreement in force therefore they do not & never had permission to share my data with any third party, by doing so they may have committed an offence under the Data Protection Act.

I have written to them asking them to remove this default and to date this information remains on my credit reference report. I respectfully request that you to investigate this company regarding the above matters as I am of the opinion that they are unfit to hold a consumer credit license.

I have included a copy of the cca request sent to xxxxxxxxxxxxx on xx/xx/xx and also a copy of the complaint/non compliance/LBA letter I have sent them today .

I would appreciate your advice & guidance on the above matter

 

Yours Faithfully

[don leocornay]

Hi

 

I have a question. If there is no signed agreement but the bank provide a 'true' copy. Can they still enforce the debt?

 

My thought is that no copy can be true if there is no signed original. Am I right?

 

Full story is below:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/92344-don-leocornays-gonna-kick.html

[N.P]

Hi everyone,

 

I`ve just had a quick read of some of the posts on this thread and they are quite interesting.

 

Just a quick one though, if a Bank, Loan or Credit Card company lends you money without an actual agreement, then surely they is NO agreement to pay it back, in which case you could say they gave you the money, how nice of them.

 

If their application forms and agreements are supposed to be regulated by the CCA 74 or 2006, then they should be exactly that. If they aren`t then there is no debt due to the pretendy Mickey Mouse paperwork.

 

I have a few couple of disputes myself, and quite frankly, I beleive I was bombard with offers of loans and cards etc to a point where I had no choice but to accept them. Then, the next strategy would be to up the credit limit then lash me with high interest and late payment charges in order to trap me in debt and get even more out of me.

 

If people want to dump money in my Bank Account and let me spent it without an agreement to pay it back then cool.

 

Regards

 

 

N.P.

[car2403]

Hi

 

I have a question. If there is no signed agreement but the bank provide a 'true' copy. Can they still enforce the debt?

 

My thought is that no copy can be true if there is no signed original. Am I right?

 

Full story is below:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/92344-don-leocornays-gonna-kick.html

 

A regulated agreement has to be signed to be enforced as per s.127(3) CCA 1974

 

(3)

The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether

or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1))

itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or

hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

[ColdUpNorth]

Please could someone provide me with a link to a template letter requesting a CCA.

[robcag]

Please could someone provide me with a link to a template letter requesting a CCA.

The letter templates are in this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

The one you want is Letter 'N', which is at this link:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html#post162367

 

From reading other threads in these forums, it would probably be advisable (I suppose it may depend on circumstances) to start the letter with "I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY OR TO ANY COMPANY YOU PURPORT TO REPRESENT"

 

 

Rob

Edited to replace lower case 'n' with uppercase 'N'

[ColdUpNorth]

Thanks

[migi]

I have a friend who has been told by a debt advice agency that a loan secured on her home is completely unenforceable because the creditor has added additional fees to her agreement that she had no choice but to accept. Apparently, most credit agreements are unenforceable.

 

The agreement is a secured loan with Welcome Finance which she thought was only £16,000, but turns out to be £64,000. Apparently, because Welcome have put additional fees on the agreement without my friends authority, the whole document does not comply with the prescribed terms laid down in the CCA, therefore, the whole debt has to be written off.

 

I will keep you informed of the outcome.

 

The agency my friend is using is [EDIT]

Do not post links to commercial companies. Please read the forum rules before posting on these forums.

[car2403]

You'll find that not all agreements are covered by the CCA, (especially if over £25,000) so I'd find that hard to believe in those circumstances.

 

Is this a "consolidation loan" company giving advice, perhaps, migi?

[don leocornay]

Thanks Car,

 

That's what I thought. They're still not budging and have issued a Final Demand for the loan.

[JonCris]

Many Welcome loans ARE uneforceable but you need to find a thread either here or elsewhere which deals specifically with Welcome finance

[car2403]

Thanks Car,

 

That's what I thought. They're still not budging and have issued a Final Demand for the loan.

 

The problem here is, don, that they think they can "reconstitute" the agreement to comply with a s.78 CCA 1974 request. Now, before you have a heart attack, this isn't my opinion, but I know the FSO and Trading Standards have accepted this as compliance with that section in the past. (Although, I think they are secretly considering a sudden change in opinion after pressure from groups like CAG)

 

Personally, if they hadn't provided me with a signed agreement after a s.78 request, I'd be WANTING them to try to enforce the agreement as they'll have no chance in Court and you will have a complete Defence under s.127(3) anyway. If that happens, you should defend and counterclaim without question.

 

The problem you may face is where they don't enforce the debt in Court, but try to Default you anyway - which appears to be what is happening here! (The under-handed swines!) If they Default you, you will have a fight to get it removed quickly - just take a look at several of my threads if you want to see what hassle is involved there.

 

Many Welcome loans ARE uneforceable but you need to find a thread either here or elsewhere which deals specifically with Welcome finance

 

I tend to agree with you there, JonCris - I worked for Welcome Financial Services and all I can say is that anyone with a WFS loan should be challenging it under many, many facets! I can't say more on an open forum, for obvious reasons...

[JonCris]

car it's my opinion FWIW that a creditor can provide a 'reconstructed' agreement to satisfy the CCA but it must not be 'conjectured' it must be a true copy of the original in as far as it goes in that it can 'exclude' addresses & Sig as per the 83 regulations

 

Nevertheless if rather than 'reconstruct' an agreement wouldn't it be much less time consuming if the creditor where just to send a copy of the original in their possession rather than faff around making one up. No if they send you a 'reconstructed' agreement chances are it's because they don't have the original

 

Also I suggest if they don't admit at the outset that the agreement provided is 'reconstructed' they risk falling foul of the 2006 Fraud act

 

However, & this is the crux of the matter they must be able to produce a 'signed' true copy of the original including the original T's & C's if they intend enforcing the agreement.

 

The problem for the money lenders is that many are no longer on possession of the originals as in an effort to maximize profit they have disposed of the hard copies in the mistaken belief that they could enforce an agreement on the basis of the account alone.

 

This of course completely ignores their CCA obligations & it's only because of their avarice that they are now suffering the consequences.

 

The great tragedy is that this valuable protection, as afforded under sec 127 of the 74 Act, has been removed from the 2006 Act by this government on the disgraceful pretext that it's in the interest of the consumer when in fact it's a sop to the finance industry after their bloody nose in Wilson v Secretary of State

[JonCris]

In forgot to mention that providing a true 'signed' copy of an agreement, any agreement, is not just reliant on the 74 CCA. It would also be required under common law.

 

It would be required if a creditor was to try & enforce a loan of any amount. After all you could demand in any litigation that the creditor provide a signed copy of the agreement they allege you entered into

[FANTASY CHARGES]

how many of you have had a letter with a paragraph in it that states :

 

 

 

"aLTHOUGH we have been able to provide you with a copy of the credit card application and the latest terms and conditions we have been unable to obtain a copy of the original terms of the account.In view of this the remaining balance on the card account has been written off and your obligations to us under the agreement are discharged." :-D

"

[gill5blue]

not me (on plenty counts)

although I would like a couple