HazyJog vs Barclays

[hazyjog]

having lost my previous post, starting again...

 

sent my letter off asking for statements, got a lovely friendly helpful sympathetic letter back the other day saying they'd be only too delighted to send me all this information, and only apologising that anything more than six years ago would take a little longer to get together as it's not stored on computer.

 

a) i think the 'not on computer' has to be rubbish - it's only 2001 for goodness' sake - i don't believe barclays were still making notes of all transactions in biro

 

b) seems BankFodder is right to push the 'more than 6 years' angle if they're being preemptively apologetic about it before i'd brought the subject up

 

I think they have another week or two to get the stuff to me (need to check the date i sent the letter), which means if it doesn't arrive in the next few days i can send a gloriously stiff warning letter to them, despite the cuddly tone they're adopting at present.

 

one general question for all out there - Barclays also recently sent me their changes in terms of conditions, in which there's some beautifully opaque language about the credibility of their charges, beginning 14 May this year - the question is: isn't this all about the unfairness of opaque and overblown charges, and so if they still don't tell you their charge rate, they're still being unfair, despite new conditions that say they can still charge whatever they want, changing whenever they want, and that you (by default) agree to this if you don't close your account in the next 4 weeks?

 

fingers crossed then, and toes curling in anticipation of war,

hazyjog.

[hazyjog]

erm, hello all. don't seem to have attracted much attention here, but then i haven't done very much as yet...

 

finally got my statements through last Friday - thanks v v v much indeed to one of the people on this site who recommended phoning customer services - it really does you put on an urgent list. annoying though that the bank relies on people not necessarily bothering to chase their statements if they don't arrive.

 

anyhoo, have done my schedule of charges (no interest!) and am sending the prelim letter off today. really really really hoping they don't try and close my account since i've got an overdraft twice as large as the amount i'm asking for... am getting married soon and shouldn't really be risking having to find a couple of grand to pay back an overdraft just before the wedding... on the other hand, winning this case means actually having a honeymoon! suppose if the worst comes to the worst, we've got a tent and some friends in devon though, so perhaps don't really need to worry about that bit.

 

well, since i'm rambling now, better stop - but i would like to hear anyone's opinion on how likely the bank are to close my account and demand their money back - it has happened a few times i've seen, but is it a 0.1% chance, or a 50/50% chance does anyone know?

 

cheers

[CAZKATJOE]

Hi hazyjog,

 

I have been a member of this site since begininng of February and i have only read of one person having their account closed. So i dont think it is that common but you shouldnt count on it. Hopefully you will be fine, I was, i claimed won and they never closed my account

So good luck go for it

[dar£n]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/74267-well-all-very-interesting.html

[hazyjog]

Ahhh... thank you Dar£n! might try and delete that old one then, since it's probably just cluttering up space now i've started again. Finally discovered the 'search' function as well, so not losing this second attempt!

 

and thanks v much cazkatjoe - feel a bit reassured - tho to be honest, i've been always been a rubbish overdrawn bank customer, so if i grab back the only reason barclays had to tolerate me (i.e. making money out my difficulties) then i wouldn't be surprised if they no longer feel there's any point paying for my permanent overdraft.

 

while i wait for a response, will be busy telling all friends and relatives that they've been done over all these years...

 

cheers again

[hazyjog]

help, anyone, please...

 

i thought i was understanding all this, but now think i just read too many threads in random order and am now really unsure of myself. Can someone please be really kind and confirm these things?:

 

- you don't ask for statutory court 8% on an LBA ('cos it's statutory court which you haven't reached yet...)

- but you can charge overdraft interest on an LBA (although this is tricky if your overdraft limit changed a lot?)

- the 14 day limits are calendar days, not working days (think i've just given barclays an extra week by assuming working days...)

- so given i'm not brain of britain on these things, i should just keep it simple, send the LBA with charges only (not attempting to faff around with overdraft interest, but including the more recent charges), and if no reply file the N1 thing around 4th July (as allowing them a few days to receive the letter)

 

?

[saintly_1]

That sounds like a good plan .. im only claiming the charges and not the od interest (i liked the sound of the simple spreadsheet seemed it could of been names just for me )

[hazyjog]

thank you!!! if there's a simple club around i'm for joining it...

[Tipsy0nBacardi]

Well if you find one let me know,i'd be happy to join as well lol

[saintly_1]

Maybe we should start one tipsy lol

[Tipsy0nBacardi]

I'm up for it if you are, will there be plenty of bacardi there lol

[saintly_1]

That will DEFFINATELY be written in the rules

[Tipsy0nBacardi]

Sorry hazyjog for hijacking your thread but your more than welcome to free membership to tipsy and saintly's bacardi drinking simple club lol

[hazyjog]

hah! not to worry - am not terribly keen on bacardi but very much approve the principle of the thing and all for simplicity and boozing mixed up.

 

have not been about as waiting for response to LBA - have just received letter day before deadline with some rubbishy waffle about sending me a progress report in about 8 weeks' time. i assume that i can stick to my timetable, reply to tell them that, and go for the N1 thing - WITHOUT - and that's the bit i'm unsure about - the judge thinking i've been obstructive for not giving them a chance to sort something out?

 

if someone could kindly tell me that that's ok, i'll be sending form and letter off tomorrow. woo-hoo!

[saintly_1]

Your right stick to your timescale ... you have given them ample time

[hazyjog]

thank you! when i win, there'll be barcardis all round

[hazyjog]

GORMLESS QUESTION ALERT!!!

 

as i'm claiming back 6 years, Barclays (eventually) coughed up 6 years' worth of statements, BUT,

 

i asked on 15th March, they sent on 29th May, statements begin 5th March, so... if i'm claiming 6 years will it be from today, which is when i apply to court, so 4/7/01 to the present? or will it be from any of the previous dates, or will it be from the court date i get given?

 

i'm beginning to think i have no common sense - this sort of thing is probably bleedingly obvious to other people...

[hazyjog]

God i'm thick.

 

I'm trying to fill out the N1 form, which I notice nobody else has had any trouble deciphering, but i'm buggered if i can get my head around it. Can anyone help on this bit:

 

Charges £xxx.xx (yup, fine with that)

Overdraft Interest £xxx.xx (this is the complicated bit i'm not going for, since my overdraft limit has been up and down so much)

Interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 £xxx.xx (the 8% business right?)

Court Fee £xx.xx (yup got that, at 120 for me)

 

TOTAL £ xx.xx (and i can do that maths)

so the question is... what's this additional bit for? Do I need to explain to the court what the s.69 interest is actually made up of?

 

Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £xx.xx per day [(enter daily rate here - (CHARGES+OD interest)x 0.00022 = pence per day)] OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

i can't find an icon that really expresses the state of my face at the minute. please help someone...

[saintly_1]

you need to multiply your charges by 0.00022 that will give you the daily rate (thats the amount that your 8% interest increases daily)

[hazyjog]

yay, thanks saintly...

 

but jeez i'm such a big girl. 4 hours later and i still don't get it. would be grateful if someone would just okay my further thinking on this, having read just about the entire forum and frowned myself silly... that what i should put in an N1 should look a little like the below, given my facts (i think) are:

 

1. my total charges are 2,185

 

2. i have no way of telling, due to fluctuating overdraft limits and fluctuating ability to observe them, what proportion of my overdraft is authorised, or unauthorised, but it's safe to assume (as i'm always overdrawn) that i can then add the authorised overdraft interest they have charged me, at 15.6%, on the charges themselves

 

3. arguing the principles of mutuality and reciprocity, i then add another 27.5% contractual interest on the total of 1. and 2. above, the 27.7% being the same % as their unauthorised overdraft interest rate

 

(applying today's rates of 15.6 and 27.5 on the full 6 years, and arguing inflation against any attempt by the bank to claim they're too high?)

 

4. and although i didn't put the full amount in my LBA, it did say i would be adding interest at this stage, so does etiquette absolutely demand i go back and tell them which type i meant?

 

5. and since i'm going for contractual interest, i don't mention anything whatsoever to do with s69 interest at any point, including specifying any dairly rate?

 

6. i'm now rather in awe of such names as Bill-K, GlennUK and Vampiress, so tomorrow i'm going to try and work out what those interest amounts might be without actually asking anyone 'which spreadsheet'...

 

:???: :confused:

 

________________________

 

UNDER VALUE SECTION OF N1

 

Charges £2,185.00

Overdraft interest £1,482.44

[ instead of s69 here ] Contractual Interest at Unauthorised Overdraft Rate as set by Barclays Bank £ [ can't work this out yet ]

Court Fee £120.00

 

TOTAL £whatever

 

[ leave this bit out? ] Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £xx.xx per day [(enter daily rate here - (CHARGES+OD interest)x 0.00022 = pence per day)] OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

___________________

 

UNDER PARTICULARS SECTION OF N1

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £2,185and any interest charged thereon;

 

new b) The claimant claims contractual interest on the amount in a) at a rate of 27.5% a year, from 29/11/2001 to 4/7/2007, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate. Alternative, the claimant could accept interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, on the same conditions;

 

c) Court costs.

 

______________________________

[hazyjog]

bump

[Trucker]

yay, thanks saintly...

 

but jeez i'm such a big girl. 4 hours later and i still don't get it. would be grateful if someone would just okay my further thinking on this, having read just about the entire forum and frowned myself silly... that what i should put in an N1 should look a little like the below, given my facts (i think) are:

 

1. my total charges are 2,185

 

2. i have no way of telling, due to fluctuating overdraft limits and fluctuating ability to observe them, what proportion of my overdraft is authorised, or unauthorised, but it's safe to assume (as i'm always overdrawn) that i can then add the authorised overdraft interest they have charged me, at 15.6%, on the charges themselves

 

 

3. arguing the principles of mutuality and reciprocity, i then add another 27.5% contractual interest on the total of 1. and 2. above, the 27.7% being the same % as their unauthorised overdraft interest rate

 

(applying today's rates of 15.6 and 27.5 on the full 6 years, and arguing inflation against any attempt by the bank to claim they're too high?)

 

4. and although i didn't put the full amount in my LBA, it did say i would be adding interest at this stage, so does etiquette absolutely demand i go back and tell them which type i meant?

 

5. and since i'm going for contractual interest, i don't mention anything whatsoever to do with s69 interest at any point, including specifying any dairly rate?

 

6. i'm now rather in awe of such names as Bill-K, GlennUK and Vampiress, so tomorrow i'm going to try and work out what those interest amounts might be without actually asking anyone 'which spreadsheet'...

 

:???: :confused:

 

________________________

 

UNDER VALUE SECTION OF N1

 

Charges £2,185.00

Overdraft interest £1,482.44

[ instead of s69 here ] Contractual Interest at Unauthorised Overdraft Rate as set by Barclays Bank £ [ can't work this out yet ]

Court Fee £120.00

 

TOTAL £whatever

 

[ leave this bit out? ] Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £xx.xx per day [(enter daily rate here - (CHARGES+OD interest)x 0.00022 = pence per day)] OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

___________________

 

UNDER PARTICULARS SECTION OF N1

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £2,185and any interest charged thereon;

 

new b) The claimant claims contractual interest on the amount in a) at a rate of 27.5% a year, from 29/11/2001 to 4/7/2007, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate. Alternative, the claimant could accept interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, on the same conditions;

 

c) Court costs.

 

______________________________

 

Ok

 

This is the first time you have mentioned contractual interest. Be warned BARCLAYS WILL DEFEND IT. And you should have added it to both your Prelim and LBA letters

 

If you have used the spreadsheets from this site the amount of interest they have charged you on the penalty charges will be worked out automatically (assuming you have followed the instructions on the spreadsheet correctly). This is regardless of the O/D limit or interest rate. It is purely a percentage of the total interest charged

[hazyjog]

Thanks so much Trucker!

 

yes, i've been reading boba fett, and realise the banks aren't going to roll over on this one - also, since i just got a 'holding' letter from barclays, i have a good opportunity to look reasonable by responding to them (rather than lurching straight to court), in which i can make clear that the interest i referred to in my last letter was contractual.

 

i'm prepared to see what rate they'll settle for prior to the court date, and also prepared to go to court and present some arguments on equity - even if they get nowhere due to lack of legal principle, it might be worth the publicity and i'm aware i might lose the lot...

 

and thank you thank you thank you for your last paragraph on o/d interest - i think my problem is that i read everything indiscrimately, so some of the mistaken assumptions on this site stuck in my head just as thoroughly as the final resolutions, meaning i got very very confuzzzeeeddd indeed...

 

my maths never progressed past about primary level, but i feel on stronger ground on the legal principles of the thing.

[hazyjog]

oh, and yes! i'm a one-website-lady, none of this trolloping around other forums for me.

 

so, just to be painfully, painfully, clear... the Vampiress spreadsheet i'm using:

 

ENGLAND AND WALES

SIMPLE VERSION - choose to claim all or no bank interest

1 Throughout claim with contractual interest

 

... has calculated the estimated o/d interest on the charges taken, AND (having put the unauthorised interest rate in the 8% box) also worked out the contractual interest on top of that? so the one list of numbers visible includes both calculations of interest? please oh please say that's right, and remind me what the word for numerical dyslexia is... if it is, how can i get a breakdown of what the o/d interest is, before contractual is added, to show in my schedule of charges?

 

and if anyone's kind enough to have read this far, comments welcome on my draft letter below - this is a response to Barclays' response to my LBA, in which they said they'd like more time to think about it.

 

grateful for any help, and very much looking forward to the tipsy/saintly barcadi binge...

 

________________

 

OFFER TO SETTLE PRIOR TO APPLICATION TO COURT

 

Dear ,

ACCOUNT NUMBER:

YOUR REFERENCE:

Thank you for your letter of 2nd July 2007, in response to my Letter Before Action, sent 20th June 2007. Although I was pleased to receive a response, since Barclays Bank plc had not replied to my previous letter, I was disappointed to find that you had not addressed the substance of my letters, but merely offered an update on progress in eight weeks’ time.

Nevertheless, your response allows me to lay out again the substance of my request, and the grounds on which I would be willing to settle to avoid taking the issue to court. I ask for a sincere response from you regarding this matter within the next 14 days. Should I receive no such agreement to my offer, or indication that you are willing to discuss this matter, I will be filing a claim in the County Court.

Unlawful ‘Penalty’ Charges against my account

The regime of ‘penalty’ charges which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to consumer regulations: it has been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and hence presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

I again draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

TERMS OF OFFER TO SETTLE

In my last letter, of June 20th 2007, I calculated that you had taken £2,025.00. Since then you have applied a further £160.00 of unlawful charges to my account, bringing the total to £2,185.00. I remind you that in my letter of 20th June I gave notice that I required a full refund of these charges, plus interest, and plus court costs if and when this issue is referred to court.

As I consider this to be Unauthorised Borrowing, which according to your published rates is subject to a monthly interest rate of 2.05%, or annual rate of 27.5%, I require a full refund of the ‘penalty’ charges along with the overdraft interest charged on these, as well as the accrued contractual interest as per the attached schedule of charges. The total claim being £3,667.44. This requirement for contractual interest at your Unauthorised Rate is based on the clear principle in the UTCCR which states that contracts must have “fairness and balance”. According to the law, “fairness and balance” require that both parties to a contract are equally bound by it, and equally liable to pay compensation for failure to abide by it.

I now require a full refund of £3,667.44 within 14 calendar days. If you do not respond to this offer within the 14 day timescale, with either an agreement to pay the refund in full, or an alternative offer based on a reasonable rationale for the amount of interest accrued, I shall file a claim at the County Court with no further offers to negotiate.

I would, at this point, draw your attention to the large quantity of similar claims being made upon yourselves and other financial institutions, and suggest that in most instances full payment has been rejected until such time as a court date is set. For yourselves and other institutions to allow the court process to be engaged until the very last moment, at which point full settlement is made, may well be considered an abuse of process. Should this discussion proceed to an application at the county court, the following request will be made of the judge:

“Please consider striking the Defence out as an abuse of process on the basis that it has settled all previous claims of this nature. If the Defendant objects to this course of action it is to file at Court within 14 days, a Schedule setting out a list of all claims it has pursued to trial and all claims it has settled.

I will also, at the courts discretion, be requesting a standard disclosure for a breakdown of your penalty charging system, in order to prove that your charges are not in line with the true costs incurred by you, thus rendering them unlawful.

The following paragraph is phrased from the OFT “Unfair Standard Terms” as empowered by the Enterprise Act 2002.

“Consumers should not have to pay more compensation than is really needed to cover the damage they should have realised their default would cause. As well as being potentially unfair – see Schedule 2 paragraph 1(e) – excessive penalties are unenforceable under the general law.”

I must also remind you for the second time of my original request that you forward a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and your continued failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence a county court action.

[hazyjog]

bump

 

nobody loves me... seriously, i'm probably being really impatient, and this site runs on goodwill, but i guess i've got the bit between my teeth and want to get on.

 

if it helps, i'm trying to find people who know even less than i do to give advice to in hopes of improving my karma on this website.

 

all replies gratefully recieved, including the ones that tell me off.