Taking Cabot to court for failing to supply HSBC CCA + Distress etc

[Cornucopia]

Stop sounding so smug, Corn. It makes you look like you're enjoying yourself

 

Actuallly Seahorse, can I just say, your avatar scared the *hit out of my small daughter........

 

"that's nice Mum.......AAAAAAAAAAARRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH".

 

I said "calm down dear, it's only an avatar"!!!!:D:D

[louiboy]

Does anyone know, if I have to also send a copy to Cabot ?

At some point you need to send a copy to Cabot. There are tactics involved in the production/timing of court bundles. Submit them at the last possible moment. Giving your opponent less time to counter. Keep them in the dark as long as possible.

 

This may not be relevant to England but can be adapted.

 

In the Scottish system if the opportunity arises hold the documents until the hearing date. This is effective during the prelim stages. When it gets to proof hearings the judge wants to see the rules applied. There's an advantage to delaying documents during the early stages and then following the rules strictly later.

 

You need to find a copy of the court rules of engagement for England.

In Scotland it's the Act of Sederunt. There will be a similar system/set-up for down south.

 

Have been to court defending several times now and shadowed a heavy weight solicitor on another case and they tend to play outside the rules/deadlines when they can get away with it.

 

Follow your heart. Your not a solicitor. Your not expected to understand all the rules and procedures. Use ignorance to your advantage. When the opposition makes a procedural mistake be prepared to point it out. They are expected to understand the rules and procedures.

[InKogneeToh]

At some point you need to send a copy to Cabot. There are tactics involved in the production/timing of court bundles. Submit them at the last possible moment. Giving your opponent less time to counter. Keep them in the dark as long as possible.

 

This may not be relevant to England but can be adapted.

 

In the Scottish system if the opportunity arises hold the documents until the hearing date. This is effective during the prelim stages. When it gets to proof hearings the judge wants to see the rules applied. There's an advantage to delaying documents during the early stages and then following the rules strictly later.

 

You need to find a copy of the court rules of engagement for England.

In Scotland it's the Act of Sederunt. There will be a similar system/set-up for down south.

 

Have been to court defending several times now and shadowed a heavy weight solicitor on another case and they tend to play outside the rules/deadlines when they can get away with it.

 

Follow your heart. Your not a solicitor. Your not expected to understand all the rules and procedures. Use ignorance to your advantage. When the opposition makes a procedural mistake be prepared to point it out. They are expected to understand the rules and procedures.

 

Hi

 

It's the Civil Procedure Rules for England and the many in-depth practice directions:

 

CPR - Parts and Practice Directions

 

Happy reading!

 

But I agree that it's good to hold your ammo until the last permissible nano-second. You can bet your sweet life they will!!

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Can anyone help this Cager upload a readable image please?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/64833-what-should-i-do-4.html#post711157

 

Cheers, Pam

[ODC]

Will WW get his P45 or will he do time

[tbern123]

Pam, when you get time can you have a look at their defence. If you have any suggestion or recommendations can you please pm them to me.

 

Thanks

[InKogneeToh]

2. By a letter dated 12th May 2006, Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited, acting as agent of the Defendant and on its behalf, informed the Claimant that:

 

i) HSBC's rights under the HSBC account had been assigned to the Defendant;

ii) the balance outstanding and due to be repaid by the Claimanton the HSBC account was £*,***.**

iii) accounts assigned to the Defendant were serviced by Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited;

iv) Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited was authorised to receive payment on behalf of the Defendant and all correspondence should be addressed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited;

v) information about the Claimant's debt might be sent to the Credit Reference Agencies; and

vi) any information obtained would be used for the purpose of collecting debt.

 

Hi - my thoughts, point by point where applicable, starting with this one:

 

(i) They are stating that they have been assigned the rights under an account but have failed to show how/why they are entitled to enforce the terms of a regulated credit agreement that would have given rise to that 'account'.

 

(ii) Prove it! What where the terms/the initial credit amount/date and rate of each repayment??

 

(iv) Maybe, but first the Defendant has to show that the Claimant is actually the person who owes the money and under what contract he agreed to pay it in the first place!

 

(v) Prove it's the claimant's debt

 

11. It is not admitted that the Defendant was at any time the creditor under the agreement for the HSBC account for the purposes of section 77, 78 or 97 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“the 1974 Act”). Section 189(1) of the 1974 Act provides that, unless the context other requires,

 

“Creditor' means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person (did you not understand this bit then?)to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law”.

 

The Defendant never provided credit (read the section above again - you don't have to have provided credit!!)under any agreement with the Claimant and, although the rights of HSBC under the HSBC account were assigned to the Defendant, the duties of HSBC under the agreement for the account did not pass to the Defendant by assignment, by operation of law, or at all. (Surprise Surprise! )

 

See my comments above

[blazing-badger]

If it were true that the Creditor's rights and duties under the CCA can be seperated in this way, it effectively renders the Act pointless. Any Creditor could avoid his duties under the Act simply by assigning the rights but not the duties to another company, which could be another in the same group.

 

Effectively if the Court accept this line of argument then Parliament has passed an Act which has no meaning whatsoever.

[InKogneeToh]

15. It is admitted that, by letters dated 28th January 2007, the Claimant made subject access requests, under the Data Protection Act 1998 (“the 1998 act”), for copies of all data relating to the Claimant that was held by the Defendant and for copies of all data relating to the Claimant that was held by Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited. It is further admitted that, by letter dated 20th February 2007, Hodsons, solicitors acting on behalf of the Defendant, informed the Claimant that the Defendant did not hold any data in relation to the Claimant.

 

You may not 'hold' data relevant to the claimant but some has certainly been 'processed' in your (Kings Hill) company name - e.g. the assignment of the debt from the original creditor to you and your subsequent appointment of CF(E) Ltd and Hodsons as your appointed agents.

 

"processing", in relation to information or data, means obtaining, recording or holding the information or data or carrying out any operation or set of operations on the information or data, including-

 

(a) organisation, adaptation or alteration of the information or data,

 

(b) retrieval, consultation or use of the information or data,

 

© disclosure of the information or data by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available, or

 

(d) alignment, combination, blocking, erasure or destruction of the information or data;

 

17. It is denied that the Defendant disclosed the Claimant's personal data to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited, HSBC supplied Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited with information relating to the Claimant as set out in the letter dated 19th February which is refferred to in paragraph 16 above, and Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited subsequently disclosed that information to Hodsons and to UK Changes.

 

Ah yes, but who (as owner of the debt) gave HSBC authority to do that then - uummm!)

 

18. The Defendant us unable to prove the Claimant consented to the disclosure of his personal date in relation to the HSBC account by HSBC to third parties. HSBC has retained no copy of the agreement for the HSBC account.

 

The defendant is also unable to prove that it is the claimant who owes this alleged debt in the first place then!

 

19. Disclosure of personal data of the Claimant in relation to the HSBC account to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and such processing of that data as has been undertaken by Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited, including it disclosure to Hodsons and to UK Changes has been fair and lawful, whether or not the Claimant consented to such disclosure and such other processing, in that it was necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by the data controller, namely debt collection and defending this claim, and the Claimant was informed that his data would be processed for the purpose of debt collecting by the letter data 12th May 2006, which is referred to in paragraph 2 above. The Defendant will rely upon section 4, paragraphs 1 to 3 of Part II of Schedule 1, and paragraph 6(1) of Schedule 2 to the 1998 Act

 

All very interesting, but remind us again how these 'legitimate interests' and this 'fair and lawful' disclosure and processing sits with a situation in which the data processor has no proof whatsoever that it is the claimant that actually owes YOU any money!

 

23. Compensation is only payable under section 13 of the 1998 Act where an individual suffers pecuniary damage by reason of a contravention by a data controller of any of the requirements of the 1998 Act. The Defendant will rely upon the express provisions of section 13(1) and (2) and Johnson v The Medical Defence Union, Times 4th April 2006. The Claimant does not allege that he has suffered any pecuniary damage by rweason of the alledged contraventions of the 1998 Act and it is denied that he has suffered any such damage.

 

 

Bit out of date here with your info folks!

 

24. It is denied, for the reasons set out in paragraphs 11, 12, 13 and 14 above, that the Defendant has committed any offence under the 1974 Act.

 

Perhaps you should employ someone who can actually read and understand the CCA before your hole gets any bigger!

 

As their defence is full of half truths and inconsistencies, is their anyway I can get the Judge to through out and disregard their defence ?

[tbern123]

Happy Easter Everyone,

 

I am looking for some advice please..

 

I have mentioned this before, but I didn't really look into it, as I thought that no company could be that stupid. Anyway as a result of my pending court case, I have been looking through all my papers.

 

Those that have been following my thread will remember me saying that in the Bank of Scotland SAR information it states:

 

Cabot Internal Records

184., 08/11/06 12:41, outgoing call: other contact type - Information - tt BOS, tppp

 

I have adv PP and that stmt of acct needed urgently, is one avail? does not look like it otherwise we would have recd by now. will put together a stmt on their headed paper giving details of pmts recd and to whom.

 

I don't remember recieving these statements, so I didn't think the above statement was that important.

 

However..... After looking through all the letters, I today found a letter dated 13 November 2006. This letter states:

 

"We have obtained a copy statement relating to the above referenced account from Bank of Scotland and this have been enclosed for your attention"

 

So firstly, in their telephone call records Cabot say they will make a statement themselves and in their letter to me, they say they have obtained a copy from Bank of Scotland.

 

Ok, you might think.. As the telephone call was on the 8 November and their letter is dated the 13th November 2006, Bank of Scotland may have sent them a copy statement in between these dates.

 

However......

 

The statements are dated 8/11/06...

 

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions

[Cornucopia]

Oh my GOD! So they really are constructing documents for their own ends, it seems not just MBNA either.

 

You must bring this to the attention of the Judge, they have hung themselves in one statement if you ask me. Others may disagree, but they are admitting to having to construct a fraudulent document in order to be able to comply.

 

This sounds so achingly familiar..........

[tbern123]

Even if the "statements" Cabot sent to me, were somehow provided by Bank Of Scotland, surely Cabot's internal records shows a level of intent...

 

intent to do what, I can't say, as any remarks could be libelous

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

But what are they doing with BOS 'headed' paper in the first place??

 

Is this a 'replica' or photocopied heading or have BOS sent them reams of headed paper (just in case they need it! )??

 

I wonder how many other versions of suitably 'headed' paper they have?

 

Regards, Pam

[ODC]

Even if the "statements" Cabot sent to me, were somehow provided by Bank Of Scotland, surely Cabot's internal records shows a level of intent...

 

intent to do what, I can't say, as any remarks could be libelous

Only if they are untrue;)

[Guest Battleaxe]

Hi

 

But what are they doing with BOS 'headed' paper in the first place??

 

Is this a 'replica' or photocopied heading or have BOS sent them reams of headed paper (just in case they need it! )??

 

I wonder how many other versions of suitably 'headed' paper they have?

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hand waving in air to attract the teachers attention I know the answer to this...

 

MBNA have a supply of A & L letterheads as they use the A & L brand for the Credit cards, everything from MBNA to us comes with A & L letterhead. I queried this and that was the explanation. So I guess BOS supplied Cabots with a few reams of their letterhead for creative writing exercises.

 

You can bet Cabot have a stationery cupboard filled with various banks letterheads just in case it is needed.

 

Do you know paper can be carbon dated? hehehehe...methinks you hcan have some fun with Cabot on this one and I am sure you can point out the fact to the judge. I would be sorely tempted to ask BOS for this specific statement under SAR and then hit them with non-compliance.

[tbern123]

Hi

 

But what are they doing with BOS 'headed' paper in the first place??

 

Is this a 'replica' or photocopied heading or have BOS sent them reams of headed paper (just in case they need it! )??

 

I wonder how many other versions of suitably 'headed' paper they have?

 

Regards, Pam

 

I wouldn't dare suggest that they produce letters on othe companies headed paper. As this is not something that I can prove.

 

However, what I will say is that the copies of the letters Cabot have sent me "from" Barclaycard and Bank of Scotland, telling me that the accounts had been assigned to Cabot, are a perfect match word for word.

 

I can also say that the Barclaycard letter, is not signed and that the font used to write the letter is not the Barclays company wide used font (a friend of mine works for Barclays).

 

I can also say the signature on the Bank of Scotland letter is a computer printed signature.

[Guest Battleaxe]

Oh crikey, I would be SAr Barclay's and BOS for the Deed of Assigment and trusting Cabot with this task. It would be interesting to show a Judge that they cannot comply.

 

You have a point regarding the font used. It is called the corporate image. Small points I know, but throwsthe veracity of the documents into dispute.

[ODC]

Im getting a tad confused here. Surely if you sent a SAR to BOS they would have details on it as to when or if they ever supplied the statements printed on their notepaper.

[tbern123]

lol, I knmow what you mean... But I have not SAR'ed BOS yet.... What I am questioning is the "intent" shown by Cabot

[saxon]

Hello, I have a letter from Monument which matches the original from Providian, I also have Cabots version of a Monument letter whicn has a totally different amount owed!

[tbern123]

:-?

 

These people are taking the pee, big time.

 

I made a SAR request on 28th January 2007, to both Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd and Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited.

 

I got a nice letter from their legal representatives, HODSONS telling me that Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd have no data about me, so only Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd will be sending me information from my SAR requests. They cashed the cheque payable to Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd. Remember this was over 2 months ago.

 

Low and behold, I have checked my back account and they have just presented for payment the cheque payable to Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Battleaxe]

Just tell Hodson's that you are going to serve a Section 85 default on their client (do it for the devilment) and see how they react.

[tbern123]

I am not playing anymore. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

I have just sent this email to every name I could find at Cabot, the Information Commissioners Office and to Kent Trading Standards.

 

----- Original Message ----- From: tbern123

To: [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected]

Cc: [email protected] ; [email protected]

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:39 PM

Subject: Urgent Response Required - Please do not ignore this email

 

 

 

8th April 2007

 

Mr Ken Maynard

Cabot Financial (UK) Limited

10 Kings Hill Avenue

Kings Hill

West Malling

Kent

ME19 4LT

 

 

Dear Mr Maynard

 

 

I am very disappointed that I am forced to write to you again, in relation to the conduct of your company. As you are fully aware on 28 January 2007, as per my rights under the Data Protection Act 1998, I made two Subject Access Requests. My first request was made to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited and my second request was made to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to refer you to the letter I received from your legal representatives Hodsons Solicitors, dated 20 February 2007. Mr Dean Spencer states:

 

“Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited is contracted to act as an agent for Cabot Financial (UK) Limited (formerly Kings Hill (No.1) Limited) Your subject access request sent to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited was passed to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited in order to process the request. We are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data to which relates to your request.”

 

He continues....

 

“For the avoidance of doubt we are instructed that Cabot Financial (UK) Limited does not hold any data about you. It is Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited that holds the data and therefore it will be that company which responds to any subject access requests directed to the Cabot Group.”

 

Following receipt of my Subject Access Request, cheque number 300064, payable to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited was presented for payment on 12 February 2007. As confirmed by Mr Dean Spencer, it is Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited that holds the data, so I can understand why this particular cheque was presented for payment.

 

You can imagine my surprise, to learn that Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd presented cheque number 300063 for payment on 3 April 2007. My letter of 28th January 2007, clearly states, that payment was in relation to a Subject Access Request. As Cabot Financial (UK) Limited were unable to fulfil my request can you please let me know why this cheque has now been presented for payment.

 

I cannot understand the completely unprofessional conduct of the Cabot Group of companies. I have already commenced legal proceedings against Cabot Financial (UK) Limited and I am in the process of making a formal complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service, in relation to some of my other concerns. I would have thought that given the circumstances, you would have ensured that I would not have further cause to complain. Sadly this is not the case and I require your urgent response. I have taken the liberty of sending a copy of this email to the Information Commissioners Office and to Kent Trading Standards, both of which I will now be making formal complaints too.

 

Regards

 

 

Mr tbern123

CC Information Commissioners Office

Kent Trading Standards

[TideTurner]

Tbern,

 

The only way you are going to have a voice is by making a complaint to the Information Commissioner.

 

All, it is now obvious that these companies have been sharing our personal information between each other.

 

When I telephoned the Company Secretary of Halifax, I was told that she could not comment as to the Directors of Halifax, as there were 150 Companies within their group.

 

At a guess, I would say the group is composed of: -

 

Bank

Investment

Solicitors

Estate Agents

Debt Collectors

Surveyors

 

All of these companies will be capable of using each others letterheads, although, as far as Joe Public is concerned, they will be dealing with individual companies, instructed by the original provider of the loan / overdraft or mortgage.

 

They are simply cross-charging (keeping it in the family).

 

They will also look for the best deals, eg. Personal Protection Insurance or Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee, and where possible, will fail to tell the person taking out the finance or mortgage that such a policy is connected to it.

 

My friends Dad is 71, his credit card is £0.00, his monthly payments are £26.00, in case he comes out of work.

 

71!!

 

How can you have insurance on a balance of £0.00?

 

All incoming letters to Banks, DCA's, CRA's are scanned and can be communicated between the various companies.

 

Replies can then be made using one of several letterheads.

 

Every time I receive a letter, I get them on the phone to explain it. Location is not an issue, as everything is done via computer, as soon as they receive a letter in one office, it is available onlone to other offices.

 

The problem they have here, is they are keeping all records in a digital format, which is great for their use as a company, but these must be provided when requested.

 

Scrutinise everything. Question everything. If you feel they haven't provided all information they have, demand it, in particular all computer logs (notes) and correspondence.

 

If you don't get any joy, MAKE A COMPLAINT TO THE ICO.

 

Tide

[tbern123]

Thanks Tideturner..

 

Cabot is totally independent of these banks.. As a result they should not be writing to people using their headed paper, without clarifying the situation as this would mislead the public