Direct debit taken from my account without permission

[barracad]

Without taking the moral high ground, I would say you can reclaim them. irrespective that Welcome have recredited the charge to you, the bank have still place unlawful penalties on your account.

 

I agree. Welcome's payment would be seen as a goodwill gesture and I don't see how it has any impact on claiming charges back from the bank.

[Movingon]

Errrm.... OK, so Welcome make a goodwill payment in respect of charges they have caused, and which covers those charges... and now the bank has to pay them too?!

 

It might be correct legally but morally? It looks to me like you'd be claiming the same money back twice.

[Guest NATTIE]

I tend to agree with stonelaughter on this one but hey maybe both of us do not see the same things as others.

[barracad]

It might be correct legally but morally? It looks to me like you'd be claiming the same money back twice.

 

I agree but I see no reason, legally, why the charges can't be claimed back from the bank.

[kelly101]

I had the same problem when Southern Water took out a payment on the wrong date which caused me to incur an unpaid DD charge. To make a long story short, I received a credit on my SW account to the value of the unpaid DD charge. I then included the charge in my claim against the bank for unlawful charges.

 

My point is, regardless of whether you've received renumeration/compensation from the company that the DD arrangement is with, any charges incurred from the bank because of the mistake are stil unlawful. Because of this, I don't see it as immoral. After all, both the company and the bank are jointly responsible for the mix up.

 

We all know it takes a financial consequence for companies and people in general to re-think their procedures.

 

[indebtstudent]

Hang on a second Nattie and Stonelaughter I disagree with you here. If the company pays the charges then don't you see this props up the charges system to some extent? The very fact that companies do not question these charges shows how much work we still have to do. The charges are accepted by many individuals and organisations as a part of everyday life and this is not right.

 

Also I would say that claiming them, in this case, is morally right because I'm sure there are plenty of people STILL paying these charges. At the moment any money out of a bank's pocket I view as a victory.

[Guest NATTIE]

The argument is, and something i have done at work at lot, where a mistake is involved from another company that company are liable for the costs involved, now that is the charge involved. Now further remuneration for costs could be in order but still from the company. We both work for banks indebtstudent, unfortunately my mind still thinks as a bankworker outside of work. I agree with sentiment but if i am charged £30 by my bank for a companies error and that company gives me back the charge, I am out zero pounds. However should that charge take me over an overdraft facility and further charges are not refunded by the said company then i am at liberty to sue the bank for what i am out of pocket. I guess, maybe if i thought more as a claimant i would have a different view.

[calvi36]

Hi nattie,

I claimed back 3 charges from BT of 30 quid each for going over od limit on 3 sep occasions due to bt trying to claim a cancelled dd. I also incurred 3 further 20 quid charges by the bank for this and also claimed these back from bt. I think it could be verging on fraud to then attempt to claim these same charges back from the bank. I will omit these charges from my penalty charge claim against my bank. Imagine sat in court and the bank being able to produce evidence that you have already been paid these charges by a third party who are admitting error on their part and liability. The bank would argue that they were obviously not at fault and the third party was. I don't think a judge would be too happy with the claimant, do you?

[Isiris]

Your not arguing fault, you are arguing the lawfulness of the charges.

 

Just because someone else has reimbursed you for their error, doesnt mean the bank should profit from an unlawful act

[barracad]

I think it could be verging on fraud to then attempt to claim these same charges back from the bank.

 

In what way does fraud come in to play? You are arguing that the bank charged you a fee which was unlawful. End of. If the bank had only charged you their costs then I think you could start looking at whose fault it was etc, but if they are imposing unlawful penalty charges then you have the right to reclaim this.

 

Imagine sat in court and the bank being able to produce evidence that you have already been paid these charges by a third party who are admitting error on their part and liability. The bank would argue that they were obviously not at fault and the third party was. I don't think a judge would be too happy with the claimant, do you?

 

I think the judge would be more interested in the defendent and their massive breach of the Data Protection Act if they had somehow managed to obtain such information. Furthermore he would still have to judge whether the charges are unlawful so again fault would not come into play.

[loz]

Just looking around for info & opinions re. the Direct Debit Guarantee, wasn't sure of my rights until recently... I was paying for car insurance on credit, sold the car, cancelled the policy and cancelled the DD in April. 1st of May I get a letter from RBS Finsure "blah blah outstanding balance blah blah... this amount will be debited from your bank account seven days after the date of this letter". The letter was dated 23rd of April (!!!) and despite having cancelled the DD Finsure took the money before I had a chance to object.

 

I understand that I should complain to Alliance & Leicester for allowing this payment after the DD was cancelled, plus the £227 of charges that could be directly attributed to this transaction going through - but do I have any rights re. Finsure? I'm really annoyed that they used most of their 7 day notice period by not posting their letter *grrrr*

 

Sorry to hijack a little,

Loz

[buzby]

You make the mistake of thinking that the DD was paying for the insurance as it was being used. It wasn't. These deals are based on you receiving finance for the full amount of the loan. The bank pays the insurer the full amount, and you pay the monthly fee. If you cancel the insurance, you have to clear the finance and look to the insurer (not bank) for your refund.

 

The DD guarantee doesn't really apply in this case, as irrespective of the issue with insurance, you have defaulted on a loan.

[patdavies]

 

The DD guarantee doesn't really apply in this case, as irrespective of the issue with insurance, you have defaulted on a loan.

 

It does and has absolutely nothing to do with defaulting on any loan...

 

Firstly, loz had cancelled the DD - therefore the bank should not have paid it.

 

Secondly, 7 days notice of the DD from the finance company breaches the timescales (10 working days) set out in the DD guarantee.

[loz]

I didn't default, I asked if I could cancel and they agreed. What I have a problem with is Finsure helping themselves to the money, firstly without sufficient warning (even by the 7 days they specified initially, rather than the 10 working days guideline which most companies stick to), but secondly after I had cancelled the DD.

 

I am waiting to hear from A&L regarding my complaint

[buzby]

You still miss their point. You told your insurer you wanted to cancel. This is a separate issue from the loan given to pay your insurer - if Finsure are the company that paid out the full amount of the policy, then it would be in error to break your agreement with them until they had confirmed that the policy was no longer in force.

 

Further, it seems you only cancelled the insurance, you didn't end the monthly payments - which you'll notice remains a separate issue. Unless the insurer and the firm providing the loan (for the monthly payments) are the same, telling the insurer to cease will not achieve the result you expect. Finsure would have to have all the money they said was owing before a cancellation was possible, either by you paying off the difference owed by sending them the refund from the insurer, or more likely, the insurer sending the refund to Finsure to leave a hopefully minimal balance to pay.

[loz]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - when I wrote to the insurer to cancel the policy I also asked for the credit agreement to be cancelled. Following this I did not hear from the insurer again, just RBS Finsure who sent the letter I mentioned giving me "7 days" notice (more like 0 days) of the balance due. Like I said, I am annoyed that I did not get a chance to argue the toss (even if they are right) before they helped themselves to my money - a sum which was ~£60 more than my monthly payments had been, and sent me over my overdraft limit.

 

Cheers,

Loz

[buzby]

Ah - but that's one of the reasons these firms like DD's - they take your money and you have to fight for it back! I grew weary of this 15 years ago, and stopped using them entirely when it became possible for any firm knowing my account number to take any amount on any date without my written confirmation. What an own goal for consumers, and yet nobody complained at the time.

 

Your own problem is complicated by the financial middleman who sits between you and your insurer. The insurer just gets the money, and the bank provides the 'service' and make an additional profit on this element. However I agree, this is far from clear at any stage is is never fully explained. You know now though!

[Isiris]

loz

 

I will bet you they cant provide a copy of the executed credit agreement because there isnt one.

 

Presume insurance was through Quoteline or Wilsons

[loz]

Correct Isiris, they were the insurer... I'm trying to recall exactly what I signed but my mind is blank. You had trouble with this lot?

 

Loz

[Isiris]

Simple answer, you never did sign.

 

I had a massive arguement with them. Used to take 30 mins to speak to them on the phone. DD going when ever it suited them, not when we agreed.

 

You will NEVER have signed a CCA agreement I can virtually guarantee you that,.

[alexteh]

I had NTL/Virgin Media present a Direct Debit to my bank after I cancelled a while back. I just sent the bank a letter stating that I did not authorise it and under the terms of the DD Agreement, I wanted a refund.

 

They said that I should speak to NTL and I just told them I had and that they had told me to ask the bank for a refund under the DD Guarantee.

 

The bank refunded the money back to my account within a couple of days with no further hassle so it's always worth asking.