Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[Ibsys]

Okay thanks for that....I will get reading. Will I be able to find all the T & C on here?

 

Don't forget the statutory interest which is allowable on the amounts owing. As there was an overdraft, then the amount of the charges has a bearing on the overdraft interest charged. There is also a connection to the amount of interest on the loan which paid for the overdraft.

 

Lloyds... send everything by recorded delivery, track it on the Royal Mail site and save the page to your documents,, They will swear blind they never received it!

[MARTIN3030]

Okay thanks for that....I will get reading. Will I be able to find all the T & C on here?

 

So did you say the account was opened in 2003 ?

We have a few Lloyds business claimants here who may be able to assist.

[MARTIN3030]

gilly heres something I posted earlier which should also be of help to you.

 

 

Re: Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces? Dont suppose you have any terms and conditions from your account ?

 

In his Judgement of 21/01/2009 - Neutral Citation Number [2009] EWHC 36 (COMM) Justice Andrew Smith remarked about how Lloyds differed from other banks-specifically that before 2007 Lloyds did not have full written terms for its current account services....he goes on to say that ;

Quote;

 

"I should make a declaration in terms that make it clear that it does not predjudice the position on any individual customer who wishes to raise an additional question as to the terms incorporated into his contract with Lloyds TSB"

 

My interpretation of this is that although he ruled that Lloyds 2007 terms were incapable of creating penalties under Common Law,those who had earlier terms and conditions had rights to question them.

 

This was the later second stage ruling for historical terms and common law so obviously is something that you would need to rely on.

 

In a nutshell then....his judgement was not a yardstick for ALL Lloyds accounts.

 

If you copy and paste my ref link then you should be able to download it to read further.

 

A regards work behind the scenes-its a slow process and remains ongoing.

Hope that helps for the moment.

 

 

Heres a link for you-just open from here.

 

 

PDF] High Court Judgment - Bank charges - 21 January 2009

 

72k - Adobe PDF - View as html

Neutral Citation Number: [2009] EWHC 36 (COMM) Case No: 2007-1186. IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE ... EWHC 2325 (Comm). In that judgment I invited further ...

oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/.../bank-charge-judgment3.pdf

[andrew1]

Martin, would what you have written here also relate to Limited Company Lloyds Accounts?

[gillymas01]

Hi thanks for that I downloaded and read just a bit confusing though. The account was opened in 2002! I have requested a copy of charges which lloyds have sent.

 

Do you know if anybody has been successful claiming or is it all pending?

 

Not sure what the next step would be? Do I ask straight to reclaim or am i questioning the Terms & Conditions which it sounds like from the reading Lloyds never had in place?

 

Thanks

 

Gill

[xukc15]

I would just write (dont phone) and tell them that you think £300 charge for a £50 overdraft is excessive and ask for it back

Unfortunately I had already phoned. I did write as well and today I got a letter stating the same - they will refund £60 and 'no further refunds are due'. What next - do I reply and ask again, do I write to their Central Complaints team or do I just give up?

[Bigdebtor]

NEVER give up - and don't accept £60 i fyou ahve to accept it in full & final settlkement. HBOS tried that with me - and I ended up getting £1700 instead of the token £70 offered with F& F strings (2 refunds of £35) - admittdley in mid 2007 before OFT stuck its oar in.

[emandcole]

Quick indulgence on my part but anyone like to check my new idea out?!

 

Let's have a social experiment and start our own DCA!

 

[xukc15]

NEVER give up - and don't accept £60 i fyou ahve to accept it in full & final settlkement. HBOS tried that with me - and I ended up getting £1700 instead of the token £70 offered with F& F strings (2 refunds of £35) - admittdley in mid 2007 before OFT stuck its oar in.

 

I don't want to give up Just not sure how to go about it and what arguments to use if business bank accounts are under different regulations. I've only seen letter templates for personal bank accounts, which I understand don't quite apply to business accounts.

[MARTIN3030]

You should read up in these forums.

The recent decisions in the Supreme Court do not change a lot from the business charges claiming angle that were not there before.

With business bank account charges,there is a need to consider actual individual terms and conditions,whether there are associated issues that involve the Consumer Credit act (eg loans)

and a raft of other things.

Its impossible to answer questions that surround this here in a few lines.

[gaz2006]

Dear martin

Your pm box full

Case Yorkshire business under £100 bank court giving summary judgement cpr24.2 unless i apply to have stayed set aside etc do i abandon ?

 

case Nat West business under £5k case management conference in 3 weeks this is friends case do we change poc due to supreme court judgement and bring in other arguments if so which ?

 

case Nat West £9k at same court stayed do we leave apply for lifting stay and amend poc ?

 

case Lloyds business lloyds declined to pay anything back do i sit tight , apply ombudsman (not much faith ) or put to court if so under what reasons unfair , competition etc

 

advice please regards Gaz

Edited January 18, 2010 by gaz2954
typing

[emandcole]

Very tricky at the moment I believe

 

Given the fact that business accounts were different to personal accounts from a charge re-claiming point of view and now that the Supreme Court have eliminated the original line of attack we're all in limbo.

 

I'm just waiting for the new arguments to arrive from Money Saving Expert but have no idea how they'll impact on business accounts, hopefully the same principle will apply and we can all re-arm and go again.

[MARTIN3030]

Dear martin

Your pm box full

Case Yorkshire business under £100 bank court giving summary judgement cpr24.2 unless i apply to have stayed set aside etc do i abandon ?

 

case Nat West business under £5k case management conference in 3 weeks this is friends case do we change poc due to supreme court judgement and bring in other arguments if so which ?

 

case Nat West £9k at same court stayed do we leave apply for lifting stay and amend poc ?

 

case Lloyds business lloyds declined to pay anything back do i sit tight , apply ombudsman (not much faith ) or put to court if so under what reasons unfair , competition etc

 

advice please regards Gaz

 

 

Hi Gaz-do you have threads running on these ?

 

Any dates for compliance on above ?

[gaz2006]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/yorkshire-bank-clydesdale-bank/242730-help-order-court-yorkshire.html yk bank thread and

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/yorkshire-bank-clydesdale-bank/98924-defence-received-help.html yk bank thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/230999-help-advice-needed.html nat west

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/228668-help-nasty-westy-please.html nat west but they amended claim to business rather than personal and withdrew counterclaim

 

havent done lloyds thread as put on back burner due to what was happening

 

Regards Gaz

[aph101]

I would very much appreciate some advice. I have 2 claims running, both for business accounts with Nat West. In one business I am a sole trader, in the other a partner in a private firm. In both cases the claims are stayed by Bishop Auckland Court until 2 calendar months after the result of the OFT appeal. I therefore need to due something by January 25th.

In each case the POC that I submitted was as follows (in line with the suggested business POC from this forum):

1. The claimant had an account .... opened before 01/1991 and closed after 08/1999.

2. During the period in which the account was operated the Defendant debited numerous charges to the account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The claimant understands that the defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the claimant.

3. A list of the charges applied is attached .....

4. The claimant contends that:

a) The charges debited to the account are punative in nature .....

b) The contractual provision that permits the defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) and the common law.

5. Accordingly the claimant claims:

a) return of charges ...

b) courts costs ...

c) interest ...

 

 

In each case the defence put forward by Cobbets is as follows:

1. This defence is filed and served without prejudice to the Defendant's case that the POC do not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the Defendant to recover the bank charges ....

2. Without prejudice to the foregoing paragraph, if and to the extent that the Claimant proves the allegation that the Defendant debited charges to the Claimant's bank account, insofar as such charges were debited on a date or dates more than six years prior to the issue of this claim, any remedy in respect of the same, wether damages, restitution or otherwise, is barred by the operation of the Limitation Act 1980 and/or the doctrine of laches and the Defendant will apply to strike out this aspect of the claim and/or for summary judgement.

3. On allocation the Defendant invites the court to direct that there be a case management conference ...

4. No admissions are made as to what charges have been debited to the Claimant's bank account.

5. In relation to the allegation that the bank charges amount to an unenforceable penalty the Defendant pleads as follows:

5.1 In order for the claimant to sustain a claim that the charges debited by the defendant are in the nature of a penalty the claimant will need to plead and prove (a) the clauses pursuant to which the charges were applied; (b) that the charges were applied due to a breach of contract by the claimaint; and © identifying in each case the particular breach of contract (by reference to appropriate terms of the contract) that the charge relates to. As presently pleaded the claim does not plead these matters and therefore does not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim that all or any of the charges referred to in the POC have been applied pursuant to an unenforceable penalty clause.

6 In relation to the allegation that the fees and charges are contrary to common law, the claimant is required to identify:

6.1 the principles of common law relied upon by the claimant; and

6.2 if it so alleged, the contractual provisions which the claimant alleges are affected by these principles of common law.

7. Until such time as these common law principles and contractual provisions (if any) are identified the defendant cannot plead to the allegation referred to in paragragh 5 and 6 above. The defendant therefore reserves its right to plead further to the allegation once (and if) the claimant identifies the relevant contractual information.

8. In relation to the allegation that the contractual provisions pursuant to which the charges have been applied are invalid pursuant to the UTCCR1999.

8.1 The claimant is a firm and accordingly the regulations do not apply in this case.

Should I ask for the stay to be extended, ask for the stay to be lifted, or something else. If lifted - on what grounds?

Thanks.

[gaz2006]

S32 of limitation Act has several reasons why the Limitation of 6 year claims can be overturned . In fact I got one taht Nat West settled before Oft case started . However the UTCCR only applies to personal claims not business ones .

In Justice Smiths judgement he said that Nasty Westy Terms and Conditions "May " be penalties so Nat west on dodgy ground here but eh was referring to personal terms and conditions . I am also looking for new poc for 2 stayed ones i have at Nat West though they are friends accounts so if you get a good one let me know regards Gaz

[MARTIN3030]

Smith announced he could nor rule either way on pre 2001 terms as capable of bringing about an unfair charges in relation to Natwest.

Because Natwest have argued that the terms Smith looked at WERE applicable to business accounts as well-then it can be argued that Smiths ruling should equally be given consideration to business account holders as regards his findings.

 

Your POCS cite unfair consumer terms-which has no legal force for a business user.

Secondly,you should have sought reliance of the Limitation Act 1980 in your POCs.

 

This would be something like;

 

The claimant accepts that this case has issues that relate to matters over 6 years,and will therefore seek to rely on Section 32c of the Limitation act 1980 and refers to Kleinwort Benson v Lincoln Council.

 

The rest of their defence would appear to be pretty much the same as Cobbetts were responding with even before the test case.

[aph101]

Thank you for the comments so far. I really need advice on whether I can apply to extend the stay; and if not what grounds to apply for it to be lifted.

[steven4064]

I think you should apply for leave to amend your POC in the light of the Supree Court ruling. And then bang in a completely different POC - the current one would be struck out for the reasons Martin gives

[aph101]

Thanks for that. Can I simply write a letter or will I have to use an N244 application?

[gaz2006]

n244 Im afraid fee £40 without hearing or £75 with regards Gaz

not sure waht to put in amended claim ie wording etc

[MARTIN3030]

There is likely to be a hearing unless the other side have agreed.

[gaz2006]

There is likely to be a hearing unless the other side have agreed.

 

With me Yorkshire Bank applied ex parte application for summary judgment judge did order without hearing to strike out my claim so depends on judge . I now have had to pay for application for stay 28 days and to amend my poc Regards Gaz

[TINK660]

Can anyone help with this I'll give a brief background

 

I complained to Nat West about unfair charges on a business account which was running from 1996 to 2001. Got the usual statute time barred letter and no we wont refund letter. Sent in a hardship application and proof of hardship then it got put pn hold due to the court case. I want to reopen this claim as I believe that the financial ombudsman may now look at it due to the fact that it is a hardship claim and that the charges had a roll on effect often being charged when only a few pence overdrawn. However I am at a loss at how to work the letter to them. If anyone could help with drafting a letter I would be very grateful.

 

THanks

 

Tink

[Rhia]

I didn't think the Ombudsman handled business claims. Please correct me if I'm wrong as it would be very good if this route was open.

 

Hope you've challenged them with regard to the Statute barred issue. Or are you holding onto that for your reply?