I didn't get Job Seekers due to misguided advice!

[sunshine star]

This is a long winded one!!! Just querying the legalities of this really:

 

I had a very good job for five years but after maternity my position was no longer available so I was therefore unemployed. I took a compromise agreement which was financially favourable to redundancy at the time. The funds were used to pay off a credit card therefore the savings account balance still stood at nil! However during maternity I had secured a saturday job working six hours for £30.00 legitimately. Anyway, went to the job centre in Feb 2005 after spending two hours completing forms and was told as I had some form of employment and a partner who supported me I wasn't eligible for any benefit beside an NI contribution which is paid via the child benefit (for my two children) anyway. End of story, I took his advice and left it.

 

Recently similar situation arose with a friend who has been given the benefit. So straight on the phone I get to find out as I had paid £6k in NI contributions in 02/03 & 03/04 I was entitled to contribution based jsa and the fact I was working less than 8 hours and lived with a partner was irrelevant. Their advice was to write to the appeals office and await their response which I have done so today.

 

Just wondering if anyone could advise me here. I have continually applied for jobs since (well seven, plus some which didn't even respond to the application form) and been unsuccessful as I have been over qualified for the jobs. Therefore I can prove I have made every effort to gain employment within the 22 months since ( I have interview letters, applications etc). I was told today that based on what I said (obviously they will need to look into it) I was entitled to the benefit. Does that mean as I was misguided at the interview in Feb 05 I would be entitled to claim back JSA from that date? Is there a limit to how long they pay it for i.e. six weeks or until you gain employment?

 

Apologies for so many questions but I've been fortunate enough never to have come across the system before and just managed to scrape by since this happend. Does anyone know how it works and what happens if they have lied to you at interview?

Would appreciate any support.

 

If anyone knows what would happen if I took this to court? Which point of law would I argue on?

 

Many thanks

[version302003]

The £30 you were earning would of been deducted from the amount of £57 which is Contribution JSA and therefore the remaining £27 would of been the amount payable if you were entitled.

 

You do not say if your partner was working or receiving any income including benefit.

 

Your partners income does get counted when you apply for a benefit and counted as part of the total family income.

In your case it would of been £30 you earned plus your partners income. If this is above the level the government says your family needs to live on then you were not entitled to JSA.

[version302003]

Reading your post again I see you haven't mentioned a partner, If so you were entitled to JSA minus your income but as a parent (on your own) you have always since being a parent of children under 16 (19 in some circumstances) been entitled to an under lying right to Income support and CTC.

[sunshine star]

Hiya, that's not what they told me on the phone yesterday. They said it didn't matter if I had a partner or worked less than 8 hours, as I had paid so much into NI I was entitled to contribution based. They said had I been claiming income base JSA then my partner and income would have been considered a factor.

 

Fortunately someone at the job centre did confirm based on what I was saying, that I would have been entitled to it (and still am) and suggested i write to the appeals office. What I really wanted to know was where I stood legally. Do they have to back pay? How long for?

 

I'm not one for taking but we have struggled somewhat and as I've paid over £130k in tax in ten years and £20k in NI I think I'm being fair. Sorry = don't want to start a debate on the rights and wrongs of paying tax but when the time came that I had no job losing so much in wages made a big difference. Even now, an extra few pounds a week would make such a difference.

 

We're not entitled to CTC as we don't have children in childcare (not justified when I'm at home) and when I worked we were over the threshold. They haven't told us the situations changed as I'm not working either.

Thanks for your advice thou

[version302003]

Hi, legally, if the JCP have made an error and not paid a benefit when you are entitled to it then they will pay the arrears under normal circumstances and if reported within a 'reasonable period'. If you were given wrong information then your first port of call is to write exactly what has happened to you to the office who issued the decision that you were not entitled(or the office that said you were not entitled) and include in that letter a gl24 appeal form to the tribunal(which you can get from any jcp office). Do it asap if you can

 

Also you are entitled to ctc whether or not your child is at home or being looked after during the day providing your income is lower than the law states.

 

good luck

 

Have a look at this if you qualify for ctc or any other, its worth a shot and you never know !

IR Tax Credits - Do I qualify?, Do I qualify?

 

Also you are correct, Contribution based Jsa is not means tested. My oppologies for my first post

[sunshine star]

thank you! but does two years late count as a reasonable period tho?

" how would I know it was an error if it hadn't been pointed out to me within that reasonable period"?

It's not my fault that my friend didn't get made redundant until last month in order for me to find out I would have been entitled to it. Also do the benefits office not have some kind of duty to me as the banks do (fidicuary) to act in my best interests?

Letter has gone off already to my new local office so I wait to hear. But I'll get the form and post a copy to the branch which made the decision. I'll post the response when it arrives.

[version302003]

Two yrs is a long time to be honest but as you said you didn't know. If you have letters stating you were not entitled from the office that gave the decision then you can prove you were not given a benefit to which you had a right to entitlement which then you can prove to a tribunal that you were correct in your appeal. If you have chucked the letters then contact the office that sent them and tell them you want copies.(if you cant rem the exact dates tell them you want copies between dates or every single letter) they will not charge for this as private companies do. Also the DWP has a duty to include letters relevant to the case to the tribunal but ask and get/send copies to make sure as they employ some inexperienced people nowadays who can only be employed 52 weeks out of 2 years.

[sunshine star]

that's my job for tomorrow then! Thanks

[fairclaire]

I agree.

 

Your circumstances are the same as they were then. basically if you are entitled now, you were entitled then.

 

You may want to write to them clearly stating this and giving them the opportunity to make things right. my advice is do it all in writing as phonecalls to dwp always result in a different operator giving different advice due to lack of experience and giving a bog standard answer.

 

If you get no joy then definately appeal. you have very good grounds and would be very hard for any tribunal to turn you down.

 

If you have originals of their correspondence then that's great. if not, you can issue a SAR request to them. They will not ever charge for this in my experience but if you include payment anyway they will most likely provide your SAR and send the payment back.The SAR will give you copies of all the original letters etc. and should include details of all phonecalls. DWP are crap at alot of things, but usually records are kept quite well and any SAR will be complete. They are also very wary of not getting this right and take SAR very seriously.

 

As for appealing...once you get the documents you need it should be pretty easy. Not many DWP appeals fail if your in the right. The tribunals are very understanding and sympathetic and it is very informal...not at like being in court. And the DWP are so lax that they rarely send a representative to these hearings.

 

Take what advice you need out of this and see where it gets you. If you do get to appeal stage and need any help then please let me know. I have alot of experience in this field and will help as much as I can.

 

Feel free to pm me if you need any advice.

 

Good luck!

Claire

[poppynurse]

From my understanding contributions based JSA is only payable for 26 weeks you then move on to income based JSA, and you can only claim if you have paid enough NI in the last two tax years so I believe if you claim now you will not be entitled to contributions based JSA, your argument will be that you should have been entitled when you were first unemployed but I have a horrible feeling that the DWP won't backdate a claim that far - nothing to loose by trying though. As to tax credit - it's working tax credit you should be applying for I believe.

[sunshine star]

thank you all for your advice. letters sent this morning appealling against the decision back in Feb 05. i've copied the original JCP office in too and rquested they send all the letters, phone calls etc and forward me a GL24 form.

Heres hoping with fingers crossed!

[sunshine star]

Oh no!!!

Received a very prompt letter back this morning stating I had informed them I was working more than 16 hours therefore I wasn't entitled to anything. What's my next step now? I've requested the documents from the office I visited but what do I do? I was only working saturdays and the occasional Tuesdays (which was 8 hours) which is still only 14 hours if they included that. Fortunately I still have all my payslips showing the 6 hours pay for most weeks. Do I wait for the GL24 and documents and then write again?

[version302003]

Yes, I would wait as the documents (application for jsa) will either state working 16 hours or more or it wont. Did the letter you received say they will be sending them?

 

If it didn't then you could write back stating you have documentary evidence to disprove what they say and you require the items you have asked for without delay.

 

Sounds like you will need copies of payslips etc to send with your gl24.

[poppynurse]

bear in mind they will knock your earnings off any entitlement so if you were working 14 hours some weeks you would have earned more than the benefit even though you worked less than 16 hours, the weeks you worked 6 hours they would have only paid the difference between your earnings and the benefit rate at the time. I think the whole claim could only have run for 26 weeks before switching to income based JSA so even if they agree to pay out it will not be for a huge amount.

[sunshine star]

An update as I haven't logged on for a while. I followed the advice from here and sent a comprehensive letter to the job centre outlining the reason for appeal etc, reasons why I was appealling late, copies of statements from IR showing NIC paid etc, copies of letters from previous employer stating hours worked (don't have wage slips anymore) and a GL24. That was the beginning of Feb. Sent recorded delivery and received. I rang the centre twice a week every week since and not had any reply.

Tuesday this week, I wrote a strongly worded letter including copies of previous letters sent, to the decision makers in the town centre. received by them yesterday. received a letter from them this morning requesting further info! Can't believe I've waited so long for someone to do something, miss out the middle people and go straight to the people who will say yes or no and get a response straight away!

[B1nary]

Hi Tedsbird...

 

Sorry to hear about your predicament with JCP... Firstly, the advisor who gave you that information was wrong!, it doesnt matter if you're a millionaire, you make a claim by filling in the forms which are then passed onto the adjudicator to assess whether you are entitled to a claim. it is then that you will be told if you are ellegable to Jobseekers allowance or not. If you have paid enough National Insurance you may be able to get contribution-based Jobseeker's Allowance. (which is payable for 26 weeks then switches to income based)

If you have income and savings below a certain level you may be able to claim income-based Jobseeker's Allowance.

 

if you're out of work or working less than 16 hours a week on average, you can make a claim to get Jobseeker's Allowance. if you are turned down you can appeal. The only downside is you have one month after getting a decision to ask for it to be explained, reconsidered or to appeal, if you do get a reconsideration and its not in you favour you have one month deadline from then to appeal, obviously your limitations have run out. (but only because of the ineptness of some staff... and I know I've managed a Jobcentre!!!)

you could try here

 

Social Security and Child Support Appeals Tribunal - How to appeal

 

but this is really for appeals that have been heard by a tribunal and refused, but its worth a look over just in case. JCP can backdate a claim within the last tax year, (depends on circs) if you need more info of when you first applied for jobseekers allowance, go and ask at your local jobcentre , as they will have the original date of your initial claim!... Good luck..

[B1nary]

...forgot to mention... you said that you got redundancy, they will take this into consideration, and, if you have 'capital' over £16000 you will be entitled to nought. AND if you and partner have 'capital' of over £6000 then the benefit would be subjected to a 'levy' of £1 for every £250 (or part of..) over the £6k... also if you have children and they have 'capital' of £3000 or more this can also effect your claim!!

[kregrs]

From my experience the Job Centre Plus are completely useless. My partner and I both had to make a claim for JSA, both spent 45mins on phone giving details for seperate claims, only to be told at our interviews that we couldn't have seperate claims and all paperwork would need to be done again. Then last week I had to change my part of our joint claim to Incapacity Benefit, was told my partner would be switched to a single claim only to find out this week that they have closed my partners claim, without informing her! and that in order for her to be paid any benefit she would need to piggyback on my IB claim for income support. In the few months we have been claiming we have had numerous problems with payments, the worst being my partners part of our joint claim being suspended for 5 weeks over xmas as they claimed she hadn't given them any details about a query they had, only for them to 'find' the missing paperwork after xmas. We received no apology, were told we weren't entitled to any social fund payments during the 5 weeks so over xmas we £57 to live on, between 2 of us.

[sunshine star]

Hi Tedsbird...

 

Sorry to hear about your predicament with JCP... Firstly, the advisor who gave you that information was wrong!, it doesnt matter if you're a millionaire, you make a claim by filling in the forms which are then passed onto the adjudicator to assess whether you are entitled to a claim. it is then that you will be told if you are ellegable to Jobseekers allowance or not. If you have paid enough National Insurance you may be able to get contribution-based Jobseeker's Allowance. (which is payable for 26 weeks then switches to income based)

If you have income and savings below a certain level you may be able to claim income-based Jobseeker's Allowance.

 

if you're out of work or working less than 16 hours a week on average, you can make a claim to get Jobseeker's Allowance. if you are turned down you can appeal. The only downside is you have one month after getting a decision to ask for it to be explained, reconsidered or to appeal, if you do get a reconsideration and its not in you favour you have one month deadline from then to appeal, obviously your limitations have run out. (but only because of the ineptness of some staff... and I know I've managed a Jobcentre!!!)

you could try here

 

Social Security and Child Support Appeals Tribunal - How to appeal

 

but this is really for appeals that have been heard by a tribunal and refused, but its worth a look over just in case. JCP can backdate a claim within the last tax year, (depends on circs) if you need more info of when you first applied for jobseekers allowance, go and ask at your local jobcentre , as they will have the original date of your initial claim!... Good luck..

 

thanks for your reply! I had paid more than enough NIC in the previous two tax years to qualify. My main issue is that I had been fortunate enough never to have had to claim benefits therefore when I walked in the JCP with an armful of forms and was told no there and then. I believed him. Not knowing anything about the system I just walked away. I wasn't even told anything about appealling at the time. It's only been by chance that a friend had just experienced the same circumstances with her job and told me she was able to claim (reason she told me was she was 2 hours late to meet me because the appt at the JCP was put back an hour so she had to wait!).

I've been back to the original JCP who said they haven't even got the forms, just a note on the system stating the time of my appointment and the reason I wasn't awarded JSA - being I worked 16 hours (it was 6).

A letter from my previous employer has proved I only worked the 6 too. I wasn't even sent a letter informing me of their decision - which they have admitted to. Depsite two phone calls a week to the JCP leaving messages for the supervisor - no one called me back. I found the place where it should be dealt with and forwarded everything on from there.

The appeals section have been quite efficient this week so here's hoping for a speedy result.

[sunshine star]

...forgot to mention... you said that you got redundancy, they will take this into consideration, and, if you have 'capital' over £16000 you will be entitled to nought. AND if you and partner have 'capital' of over £6000 then the benefit would be subjected to a 'levy' of £1 for every £250 (or part of..) over the £6k... also if you have children and they have 'capital' of £3000 or more this can also effect your claim!!

 

We didn't actually have any cash at the time - as soon as ex employer sent the funds from the compromise agreement it went straight off the credit card! I think savings at the time (as they are now) were about £300!!!!

[sunshine star]

From my experience the Job Centre Plus are completely useless. My partner and I both had to make a claim for JSA, both spent 45mins on phone giving details for seperate claims, only to be told at our interviews that we couldn't have seperate claims and all paperwork would need to be done again. Then last week I had to change my part of our joint claim to Incapacity Benefit, was told my partner would be switched to a single claim only to find out this week that they have closed my partners claim, without informing her! and that in order for her to be paid any benefit she would need to piggyback on my IB claim for income support. In the few months we have been claiming we have had numerous problems with payments, the worst being my partners part of our joint claim being suspended for 5 weeks over xmas as they claimed she hadn't given them any details about a query they had, only for them to 'find' the missing paperwork after xmas. We received no apology, were told we weren't entitled to any social fund payments during the 5 weeks so over xmas we £57 to live on, between 2 of us.

 

I've found out your JCP will have a central 'handling' centre who deal with appeals, complaints etc. From my experience with this claim I would find out where it is and deal directly with them, missing out the JCP. Attitude, effienciency and ability is definitely something to be desired at a JCP! I hope you get your claim sorted out.

[sunshine star]

Just an update. Really bright lady at the Decision makers office has taken on my claim. Fortunately she has experience of this and has requested a 'special payment' for me. I didn't have any wages slips so based on recollection I provided a list of dates I worked, hols etc and just need to sit back and wait for the Inverness crew to do the rest. Hopefully a cheque will be in the post to pay off some creditors!!

 

Thanks to all who advised here.

[JunkiMunki]

] hiya Tedsbird,

This amounts to a "Maladministration" and I will Quote what I read from a very very reliable book;you must firstly address this issue with your DWP, and if you then find that you should have been entitled to a claim then you ask to see the manager if not already seen, explain what has happened then ask for a compensation payment to cover the amount you have lost so far, due to THEIR ERROR, the DWP have a guide called "Guide to Financial Redress for Maladministration" this decides how much compensation known as "extra statutory or ex gratia payment" should be paid, you should ask for an amount equal to what you have lost, but could also ask for additional amounts to cover interest on the arrears and any hardship or distress caused by their mistake, payments are discretionary so you must STRESS that it was their error, if they will not pay the backdated amount and you can prove your loss was as a clear result of incorrect advice or negligence by the DWP, you may be able to bring court action for damages, you may need a solicitor or advice agency for this, so it is probably better to pursue this through the courts before making a complaint to the Ombudsman, reasons for this are that if the Ombudsman does not uphold your complaint then the DWP will resist making a compensation payment to you, this my friend is taken from the CPAG book 2003/2004 under compensation payments

feel free to pm me or email me for further info as I can look the relevant info up for you. If this is any use to you then please click my scales for me

[sunshine star]

hey junkimunki. many thanks. seems it hasn't been as straight forward as expected. since the last post the appeals section decided that their system was correct as I hadn't paid enough NI contributions - I sent them a copy of the DWP statement showing that I had contributed more than enough (faxed from local Job Centre). Still didn't believe that so persisted in trying to contact previous employers!

Anyway whilst all this is going on the case has been passed to someone else (this week) who hasn't a clue what's happened and needs time to retrieve some documents from another office, go on holiday, wait for me to get back from my training course and then will contact me on 1 August.

Lady was quite polite about it but since speaking to her and thinking about it I'm getting more peed off by the minute. Do they not think I've waited long enough?

Thanks for the offer of PM - don't know how to do that yet though!

Tbird

[alibobsy]

The job centre base the ni details on what the inland revenue gives them. Soemtimes this is right sometimes it is wrong. Can you post the details from the statement about the type and amount of conts paid in each year, so I can look and see if there are any obvious problems. BTW did you actually apply for the benefit and be disallowed or were you put off prior to actually making a claim? Also you say your redundancy was used to pay off a credit card, although capital wouldn't have effected a contribution based jsa claim. Anyone claiming the income based would find paying off debt it not classed as an essential use for capital and you might well have found they would have deemed you as still having the money.

ali x