PCM vanishing windscreen PCN - Royale Leisure Park - W3 (London)

[Hamz909]

This is the full SAR

 

I have reported. Thank you for removing the previous attachment.

*reposted the SAR documents

W3 SAR documents v2.pdf

[FTMDave]

The complete SAR changes things.

They are claiming that the car park attendant, through trembling in fear of you, didn't affix a ticket, but then an invoice was sent by post on 13 March.

Are you absolutely sure you never received this?

[Hamz909]

100% sure I didn't receive it, that why my first post is with the £100 letter.

[lookinforinfo]

Thank you for posting the full sar.  So they definitely did place the PCN on your vehicle only to remove it 10 minutes later apparently because of a possible problem with the driver which seems highly unlikely [the reason for the PCN removal ]. Did the driver even see the warden at all while they were photographing the car . They did take several pictures spread over 12 minutes or so using a flash so the driver would have seen the car being photographed had they been there.   Very strange.

You said that you had an onboard camera -are you able to go back and see what happened? Was the warden wearing UKPC clothing?

In any event that PCN has not complied with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  That should be a Notice to Driver and the follow up PCN should not be sent until 28 days AFTER the day the first PCN  was given were it a postal PCN.

Instead the knuckleheads have issued the follow up PCN on the 28th day of their dodgy first PCN and so totally blowing all their machinations to get over the fact that  the windscreen ticket wasn't a windscreen ticket.

In neither case, even if they had been sent properly, they were non compliant. neither of them showed the period of parking which is specified in the Act. Both just show a time of issue at 20.02 but no end period.

Their  "mistake" in not giving 29 days  before issuing their keeper Liability notice, makes the PCN more than just non compliant. It means that the PCN was unlawful and probably deliberate as had UKPC waited until the correct time to send that Notice, it would have delayed it until the Monday. And as they probably knew that had not received the original windscreen PCN perhaps they thought it better to rewrite the Law.

Part of that is conjecture but the basic fact is correct-the Notice was unlawful. And for that there should be repercussions. My first thought was the ICO but  as it isn't really a breach of data protection it goes higher than that. Perhaps the Site Team would know. I did look at the Legal Ombudsman but they are for complaints against lawyers. 

I cannot imagine a decent lawyer even countenancing such a thing though were are dealing with third rate ones when involved with some parking companies.

 

For reference PoFA Schedule 4 S8 and S9 [2][f] f)warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

Their PCN dated 12/04/24 states "as 28 days have now elapsed since the Notice to Keeper was given, Parking Control management [UK] Ltd. [the creditor] are now able ...........to recover the unpaid parking charge from......... the registered keeper.

The original PCN was marked by them as being deemed delivered 15/03/2024 so 28 days +1 =13/04/24. Their letter was sent one day early which means they altered or ignored the law . I have never seen that "error" on any other Notice from any of the parking companies. As the Member did not receive the original PCN which was originally a Windscreen ticket but they then changed it to a postal one for some fanciful reason the whole scenario reeks of skullduggery.

I am going to ask again from Hamz why their warden might have felt scared about a confrontation with the driver but even if there was a chance the PCN was placed on the windscreen and not removed for around a minute but pictures had already been taken so why remove it? And then why produce a brand new keeper Liability Notice the like of which I have not seen before.

I would add that a complaint should also  be made to the DVLA and their ability to receive motorists data should  be removed -for the third [and final?] time.

[Hamz909]

Thank you for your reply.

The issue of the PCN issuer concerned about their safety is totally of their own making.

I did not see anyone resembling a warden, I attended with my wife and did not speak to anyone else at all, let alone behave in any way to give the perception that I was aggressive.

I think the PCN issuer was concerned about their safety from their past experience of working at this establishment - and this is entirely of their own making. If they feel that their job to be too dangerous for them then they should leave and do something else. 

Now that I know the exact time, I will go and find the dashcam footage. 

[FTMDave]

I've been on this forum for eight years and I've never once seen a parking attendant refuse to leave a ticket through fear of an altercation with the driver.  It's a very poor and obvious excuse to first not inform you you've got a ticket and second to lie about sending the £60 demand by post, so they can go for the whole £100.

[Hamz909]

So what is the strategy for me now? Wait and see? Take pre-emptive action? I don't see any reason why they would not try to extract money from me? 

From reading the answers above, it seems that I am clear on a technicality, namely that they posted the £100 PCn demand 1 day beyond what they should have by law, is that correct? 

[dx100uk]

On 10/05/2024 at 17:43, FTMDave said:

Think of it logically.  The very people who thought up this scam to send you a demand for £100 instead of the initial £60 discounted amount, are not going to accept an appeal against their own scamming! Ignore their coming silly demands for money.   But never ignore a Letter of Claim.

 

[FTMDave]

Around a month ago I had to send a sympathy card to a friend in GB.

Logistically it made sense to buy a personalised one on eBay and get it sent straight to my mate, rather than faffing around getting it sent to me.  This mighty purchase set me back all of £3.05 (including postage costs).

I was taken aback that, when it was sent, I got a tracking number.  For a flippin' three-quid card!  I had no idea that technology had moved on so much and that tracking was so easy.  The shop has feedback for 16,300 purchases so tracking must be easy & automatic.

It's unlikely your case will get to court, but in cases that do this got me thinking that we need to aggressively challenge the PPCs where they have lied about the timescales of sending their rubbish and have no proof at all of posting - when it would be so easy to provide it.

[Hamz909]

Thanks for all the help everyone

[lookinforinfo]

Write to the IPC complaining that UKPC have not observed the requirements of PoFA .

IPC 

Waterside House, Macclesfield SK10 9NR

Dear IPC,

I am writing to complain about a serious breach of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 by UKPCM. I feel that as it is more a breach of the Act rather than not just  complying with your Code of Practice which is why I am bypassing your operator. Should you decide to insist that I first complain to your operator, I will instead pass over my complaint to the ICO and the DVLA .

My story starts with being issued a windscreen PCN on 8/3/24 which was almost immediately removed and a second  PCN was then  sent by post on 13/3/24  [deemed delivered 15/3/24] which I did not receive and had to send an sar to have that particular mess revealed later  but that is not the reason for my complaint.

UKPC then sent a Keeper Liability Notice dated 12/4/24 warning me that as 28 days have now elapsed, I as keeper am now liable for the charge. 

This is in direct contravention of PoFA since the keeper does not become liable to pay until the day after the original PCN is deemed to have been given which would have been 13/4/24 -a Saturday ]. Not only does it not comply with PoFA but it fails to adhere to your Code of Practice and is in breach of their agreement with the DVLA.

You will be aware that this is not the first time that UKPC have fallen foul of the DVLA and presumably yourselves. I have included copies of both Notices for information. You will realise the seriousness of this situation if this is standard practice from the UKPC to all motorists or just those where windscreen tickets are involved since the Law regarding PoFA is being abused and is unfair to misguide motorists.

I await your  response which I understand will usually be within a week.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I would think that should be sufficient for the IPC to cancel your PCN though  you should await comments from the Site team before sending your complaint. Don't forget to include both PCNs.

 

[Hamz909]

I would change the fact that the paper PCn was not issued at all, so it wasn't attached to the windscreen in the first place .

Instead, at best, he he decided to post a PCN instead of attaching it to the windscreen, at worst, which I think is more likely - he took photos and no PCN was printed - he opted to go postal from the outset. 

The dashcam footage will confirm.

I'll keep you posted as soon as I've checked. 

[FTMDave]

LFI, the parking company here is PCM.

4 hours ago, Hamz909 said:

The dashcam footage will confirm. I'll keep you posted as soon as I've checked. 

That would be great.

BTW, what is the object on the left-hand side of your bonnet in some of the photos?  Is it just some reflection?  Or could it be the parking ticket?

[Hamz909]

That's my staff parking permit 

I have checked the dashcam and it seems the footage was deleted. 

How much of a deal breaker is this? I can install recovery software and try to recover it? 

[dx100uk]

try it.... use recuva or file scavenger or glary utils

[lookinforinfo]

It probably deletes after a certain time. What a shame you did not check at the time. However I have no doubt that there was a PCN envelope under your windscreen wiper  as shown quite clearly on one of the photographs.

. It would seem strange that it was placed there empty hence the reason I stated a second Notice was issued [though not necessarily sent.

As I said in that letter to IPC that was not what the complaint was about and probably  IPC will ask about that at the same time if they accept you  going direct to IPC for the other matter. It is immaterial how many original PCNs were issued or not issued. You are able to show the two that you have from their sar one of which coincides with the one you received in the post and that is the one that does not agree with the date times of PoFA. Thus breaching not only the Act, but also the IPC  Code of Conduct and the ability of UKPCM to obtain data from the DVLA.

So leave that part of the letter as good to go. However as it is as Dave [Thank you Dave!} pointed out that it is UKPCM and not UKPCI have amended the letter and posted it below.

 

My story starts with being issued a windscreen PCN on 8/3/24 which was almost immediately removed and a second  PCN was then  sent by post on 13/3/24  [deemed delivered 15/3/24] which I did not receive and had to send an sar to have that particular mess revealed later  but that is not the reason for my complaint.

UKPC then sent a Keeper Liability Notice dated 12/4/24 warning me that as 28 days have now elapsed, I as keeper am now liable for the charge. 

This is in direct contravention of PoFA since the keeper does not become liable to pay until the day after the original PCN is deemed to have been given which would have been 13/4/24 -a Saturday ]. Not only does it not comply with PoFA but it fails to adhere to your Code of Practice and is in breach of their agreement with the DVLA.

 I have included copies of both Notices for information. You will realise the seriousness of this situation if this is standard practice from the UKPCM to all motorists or just those where windscreen tickets are involved since the Law regarding PoFA is being abused and it is unfair to misguide motorists.

I await your  response which I understand will usually be within a week.

[dx100uk]

if find it strange you've lost the dashcam footage after little more than a month?

unless you've got it on 24/7, or it has park monitor that records when you are static upon detected movement within it field of capture?

what the device?

i do these all the time and phones 

[Hamz909]

None of the photos show any ticket. Just my parking permit and a white circle that I made in error when deleting identifying data. 

There was no indication thar a ticket was ever placed on the car - just a message that he opted to post it instead. 

I have a park mode recorder, but because there was no incident in the month of March, I deleted the footage - remember that I didn't know about the parking issue till May. 

In any case, I'll recover the data from the memory card 

Is there a safe, malware- free site to download "recuva or file scavenger or glary utils"?? 

[AndyOrch]

https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva

 

[Hamz909]

Thanks for the site. I'm terrified of malware, is this site OK? 

[lolerz]

I think the likelihood of you getting the footage here is as good as zero personally. I imagine it's already been overwritten due to sentry mode.

 

Still, nothing ventured nothing gained.

[AndyOrch]

17 minutes ago, Hamz909 said:

Thanks for the site. I'm terrified of malware, is this site OK? 

Yes

[Hamz909]

I have a BMW Advanced Car Eye 3 Pro - I think it's 50/50 

In any case, none of the documents / photos sent in the SAR showed a ticket on the car. 

[dx100uk]

take the SD card out and put on a pc/laptop then run recuva on it in 

select videos only option

select specific location

hit browse then select drive letter of the SD card.

then next 

then deep scan

then go have a cup of tea.. 

when done

dont recover the all files back to the card

select a new folder on your pc/laptop

 

 

 

 

[Hamz909]

Thanks, I'll try it.