UKPPO CCTV Capture PCN - Parked in Electric Bay - Tesco Express 212 Manchester Road, Kearsley, Bolton, BL4 8PZ.

[Hair Bear]

Hello

I've got a parking ticket,

I've been parking at a particular corner in a small Tesco car park for years.

Recently they put two electric charging plugs, one where that spot is and one at the bay next door,

I stopped using them out of courtesy in case they need to be used (I use that Tesco every day and drive past every day but have yet to see anyone use them).

Recently I went back to Tesco when it was reasonably dark.

All the bays were full, including the three blue badge bays.

I have one but none of the cars parked in the bays did, I noticed as I walked past them (nobody ever gets pulled for that because Tesco have never policed this small car park before).

Since there was two free electric bay spaces, and since I wasn't going to be long (just one product), I parked into my former 'regular' spot.

There was a notice on the wall but if I'm honest I didn't read it because

(a) I'm thick, and

(b) I honestly thought it was just telling people how to use the device (like I said, I'm thick) rather than this being a parking fine.

I went back during daylight and the sign is very obvious (as you can see from the picture), although not so obvious at night, although probably still obvious enough for you to tell me "tough luck, pal".

Now they want £100 or £60 if I pay quickly.

Am I doomed?

docs 1.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

No you're not doomed.

It's a shame you covered up the dates and times on your PCN since they can possibly help your case when they don't comply with the requirements of the rules in private car parks.

Could you please therefore include the arrival and departure times as well as the date of the offence and the date on which they alleged they sent you the PCN.

The PCN does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.since the wording should invite the keeper to pay the outstanding amount. Also I cannot see on the PCN that UKPPO are the Creditor though I may have missed it since it is so unusual not to include it.

The upshot is that you as keeper are no longer liable to pay the charge if the driver fails to pay within 28 days-0nly the driver is now liable. As Courts [assuming it gets that far ] do not accept that the driver and the keeper are not the same these rogues will have a hard job who was driving unless you appeal or have appealed and revealed who was driving.

You did say that you weren't parked there long and had that been correct you have perhaps 15 minutes where you might have had a further. argument. As it judging by the confusing times mentioned in the wording or the PCN you were there for almost an hour?

However as the light was not good and I presume the signs were not illuminated that is a reason that you could not see the sign. And did you have your blue badge showing ?

Interestingly the post code quoted does not agree with the Post office one in West houghton = BL5 3JS

Are there two different Tesco  car parks in Bolton.

You obviously could not be in two places at the same time...............

[dx100uk]

read upload

dont use hosting sites that gather pers details and spam users.

................

it is NOT A FINE.....this is an extremely important point to understand

no-one bar a magistrate in a magistrates criminal court can ever fine anyone for anything.

Private Parking Tickets (speculative invoices) are NOT a criminal matter, merely a speculative contractual Civil matter

hence they can only try a speculative monetary claim via the civil county court system (which is no more a legal powers matter than what any member of Joe Public can do).

Until/unless they do raise a county court claim a CCJ and win, there are not ANY enforcement powers they can undertake other than using a DCA, whom are legally powerless and are not BAILIFFS.

Penalty Charge Notices issued by local authorities etc were decriminalised years ago - meaning they no longer can progress a claim to the magistrates court to enforce, but go directly to legal enforcement via a real BAILIFF themselves.

10'000 of people waste £m's paying private parking companies because they think they are FINES...and the media do not help either.

the more people read the above the less income this shark industry get.

dx

 

[Hair Bear]

It reads...

"Issued date: 9th April 2024"

"Incident Time/Date:  19:49  31/03/2024"

Blue badge was showing (you can see it in the centre of the window).

I was there for about three minutes (would have been much less if not for a queue).

I needed to get one item for my disabled daughter who was with me.

You can just make out the first time on the top right of the first picture (19:49.48secs) when I was driving into the bay but yet to park,

on the second picture just before I set off to leave it it 19:53 and 12secs.

With that in mind, the time they give, which seem to say I was there between 1852 and 1949, is completely wrong, because the first photo they have says 19:49.48 and yet that photo shows i wasn't actually yet in the bay.  

Thank you so much, both of you.

since this is still a little double dutch to me I'm hoping that you and lookinforinfo can mutually decide on a way forward for me.

[dx100uk]

please complete this and scan up everything bothsides to one mass PDF in DATE ORDER

read upload

 

[FTMDave]

On the version on external sites you left the PCN number showing.

Can you please upload a new version here with the PCN no. redacted but showing all the dates and times so we can work out if they have respected the Protection of Freedoms Act timescales.

Plus fill in the sticky as dx asked.

[dx100uk]

uploads sorted

thread retitled

dx

 

[Hair Bear]

1 Date of the infringement 31st March

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] PCN is dated 9th April

3 Date received 13 April

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Yes the PCN has this written on the 3rd paragraph first page 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? The PCN has two photos

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No

7 Who is the parking company? Uk Parking Patrol Office ltd

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] At the (small 'local') Tesco Express in Kearsley, in one of the electric charging bays. Address is 212 Manchester Road, Kearsley, Bolton, BL4 8PZ.

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. It says appeal to parking-tickets.co.uk, and if that is unsuccessful you can try Independent Appeals Service

 

2024-04-09 UKPPO PCNfor Incident 2024-03-31.pdf

[dx100uk]

it is NOT A FINE!!

its very very important you understand why this is the case as explained in post 3.

 

[FTMDave]

As you talk about a "regular" spot, I'm guessing this car park is near to you.

Go back, ask to speak to the manager, and request they get the charge cancelled.  There surely must be a good chance given you're a BB holder and all the other BB spots were taken up with people abusing the spaces.

[lookinforinfo]

Thanks for clearing up the time question.

i don't know why they even issued you a ticket as you left well within the 5 minute Consideration period [that is to give the motorist time to read the T&Cs before deciding to park or leave because the rules were unacceptable .They have actually breached your GDPR as well as not issuing a compliant PCN.

It was late night/early morning when I saw your thread so was kind of tired and missed your blue badge [I am not currently in the UK].

The first thing to do is to visit Tesco and speak to the manager. Explain you were there late at night getting something for your disabled daughter; you are a regular customer; there were no disabled parking spaces nor any other parking places;

  it was dark and the electric charging spots were empty; you had never used them before except when they were disabled spots so you had never needed to read them even had you been aware that there were any. You were in and out for less than four minutes and would have been less had there not been a long queue.

I used to go to Sainsbury where my wife regularly got PCNs for overstaying and they always cancelled her PCNs  I am hoping that Tesco will be similarly as helpful to you. If he/she is not then a letter to their head office might get a better result. But a personal visit [not using the ev spaces ] is better than a phone call.

Take your PCN with you so they can write down the reference number and point out that their should be a 5 minute Consideration period and you were gone before they should have issued the ticket.  

That would be the quickest way to resolve it.

Sorry Dave our posts crossed-mine took a bit longer.

[Hair Bear]

Thanks everyone. Will speak with the manager first chance I get later today and let you know.

Unfortunately for me I'm going to have to go with plan B.

I spoke to the manager this morning, who was very sympathetic but politely let me know that they were on rented ground and he had no control over the two bays.

He promised to ring corporate to double check, and having taken my number just got back to me now.

He said he was correct in saying there's nothing he or anyone at Tesco could do about my situation, but as a result of my being stung for a couple of minutes, corporate agree that they needed to reassess the future of their carpark with the landlord.

I guess that's some sort of victory, but I'm afraid I'm coming back to the well to ask you guys how I should word this appeal, please?  

[FTMDave]

What appeal?  Private parking companies never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever.

And that's if there is a genuine reason to appeal. In your case you did disobey their silly sign so there are no grounds of appeal.

Just to check something.  This car park is solely for Tesco, right?  It's not part of a shopping complex?

 

[dx100uk]

looking on google earth there are no signs at the entrance warning people at all...

yes only tesco express dave

dx

 

 

[Hair Bear]

Yes, it is just for Tesco.

But as that manager explained, those two spaces on that ground are now rented by the electric company.

Quote

"What appeal?  Private parking companies never, ever, ever accept appeals - ever."

What is my next move then, please?

Just wait for them to issue me with whatever it is they issue, and then what? 

[lookinforinfo]

You could still write to head office. I find that some supermarket managers do not have the authority to make these decisions. So rather than admit that they fob their customers off.  One would have thought that  as a regular customer H.O. would take that into consideration in dealing with you request.  Explain that there is a five minute Consideration period that has been ignored by UKPPO which is in breach of the Code of Practice that are supposed to observe. And as such they have breached your GDPR

There is no need to appeal.  You already have enough knowledge to fight off their stupid claim as I pointed out on Post 2. They do not know who was driving and as long as you don't appeal they will have no proof to name who was driving in Court. You as keeper are not liable because the PCN is not compliant. You were only there for under four minutes with a five minute Consideration period. 

They have no chance of winning should they go to Court. You have as near to an open and shut case in your favour. Why would you want to appeal.There is no mileage in it for them to accept your appeal especially as you did park where you shouldn't.

You can totally ignore everything they send you  except if they send you a Letter of Claim. Then come back to us if they do and we will get you to send a suitably snotty letter which hopefully will change their mind about going any further. Go on with your life and don't worry. And we are always here if you wobble

[FTMDave]

I'd bet that you're being fobbed off by Tesco here.

I can't for the life of me think why a landlord would foist parking restrictions on a rent-paying supermarket.  Parking is of no interest to the landlord whatsoever.  We've never seem such a set up.  It 's the supermarket that insists on restrictions.  indeed on the PCN it is stated that the car park belongs to Tesco.

So e-mail the CEO of Tesco  https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-9138&c=Tesco Plc-Group CEO

Lay it on thick about being a genuine customer, attach any proof of payment, and point out that the BB bays were being abused by non-BB holders and so you had no choice but to park, briefly, in the wrong bay.  Request that they cancel the invoice.

Some organ grinders - e.g. Asda - are superb at getting tickets cancelled.  Others - e.g. McDonald's - are worse than useless.  But it surely has to be worth a try,

[Hair Bear]

Thank you as always. Okay, will contact Tesco and will ignore the appeal, and will let you know what happens. You guys are superheroes.

[lookinforinfo]

Dave's email is a bit of a mouthful. The director of Tesco Direct is

[email protected]

[Hair Bear]

I emailed both. Tarry's came back "Please note that I have now left the business. Please contact Matthew Barnes ([email protected])  going forward" so will send to him.

[FTMDave]

Well done.

In the cold light of day for various reasons I'm beginning to think the manager was probably telling the truth.

However, let's see what comes back from your mails today.

[Hair Bear]

FTMDave - your cold light of day suspicions are correct, alas. Just had this back...

Thank you for your email.
I was very sorry to learn that you recently received a parking charge notice after shopping at our Kearsley Manchester Rd Express store. I appreciate this is always frustrating, especially as you'd just nipped in for the one item.

I've had a look, and I can confirm that in this case the car park at this store is entirely owned by a third party - it is not owned or operated by Tesco in any way. The parking charge issued is on behalf of that third party, although I appreciate it does state Tesco on the letter.

Regrettably as the car park is owned and operated by a separate company we don't have any form of influence or control over the parking charges issued. In this case, I can only recommend that you follow the appeals process outlined on the letter directly to take the matter up with UKPPO directly.

I'm sorry that I cannot offer further help in this case. 

Please do not hesitate to contact me again should you require anything further. 

Kind regards

Ewan Kelly

Customer Service Specialist

On behalf of the Chief Executive’s Office

[FTMDave]

Yes, it struck me this morning that I'd got it wrong
   - no involvement of UKPPO in any previous Tesco thread
   - there would have been an entrance sign to a Tesco car park
   - CCTV isn't something associated with Tesco car parks.

Presumably whoever runs the car park has put CCTV at the electric, and probably BB, areas, done absolutely nothing to stop abuse, and then rubs their hands in glee every time the CCTV catches a motorist out.

You can pay £60 and this will go away.

Or you can defy UKPPO and rely on their non-respect of POFA, consideration period, etc., should they be daft enough to do court later down the line.  We would support you all the way.

[Hair Bear]

I'm always up for a fight against injustice, but as I look back through the thread I'm thinking that the natural order of events is that they first send a Letter of Claim.

Since I'm assuming that if I ignore them they will 100% proceed to this, why not (as lookinforinfo suitably put it) 'send a suitably snotty letter' now (without saying who was driving)? Or is it that in many cases if you ignore their initial PCN they go away anyway, so better to simply wait it out? 

As ever, thank you for helping.

[jk2054]

They won't go away if you ignore their PCN.