Lowell/Overdales - PAPLOC Now claimform - old Landlords utils debt

[dx100uk]

well lowells are going to have to produce them if it ever goes to court so i suppose the next move is not yours.

its only £240 and its disputed so they might well drop it.

 

[gwebstech]

Hi all

Lowell's have sent my Dad a court claim they obviously think its worth a pop.

These people are either incompetent or just sending so many letters out, that they have no idea what's happening.

They had meter readings when the previous tenant left and when the new one came in, no energy was used as it was all turned off for safety like he does at every house he rents. only charges can be standing charge if any to be added.

Just to remind you:

this is an estimated bill - surely you cant take someone to court for an estimated bill?

@BankFodder can you please tell me what the official name is for those guidelines that you posted to this previously please, ill need to refer to it in defence. I can see it says steering group, is this something that big suppliers agree to abide by?

@dx100uk i have checked his credit file and nothing on there regarding judgements etc
 

in the defence ill list:

1) its an estimated bill

2) no t&c ever sent with letter dated 7/8/19, no details about costs compared to other contracts etc

a) details of the principal terms of that deemed contract

b) written notice that contracts on terms other than deemed contract terms may be available and as to how information can be obtained as to any such terms, and

c) if the customer is a domestic customer, an accurate summary of the principal terms of domestic supply contracts available to them.

3) Overdales say that on 22/9/18 an account was entered into (see prev PDF), yet a letter from Npower on 7/8/19 states that if they don't hear from him within 30 days they will put him on an assumed contract which clearly disputes the Overdales letter.

4) Npower have NO record of any information regarding this customer!

questions:

can i get this moved to a local court?

i see that i can file the defence online but id like to go to court and show these scumbags up

can we counterclaim for my reasonable time in court?

anything else i need to add in the defence?

thank you all

2023-10-24 claimform.pdf

[BankFodder]

Does this work?

Quote

I do not owe the claimant any money as they alleged or at all.
I deny that I had an agreement in with the claimant. The claimant appears to have bought an alleged debt from a utility supplier and despite my statutory request for information both from the claimant and also the supposed energy supplier, they have not provided me with personal data relating to any of the claim, the alleged agreement, the basis of the agreement or how the sum claimed has been calculated.
The defendant puts the claimant to proof of the agreement, its terms, and the basis upon which they now say that the alleged agreement has not been honoured by the claimant if such an agreement exists at all.
Additionally, although there is a statutory provision for interest on claims, 8% is not a statutory sum and it is in the discretion of the court and given the current low rate of interest, 8% is completely disproportionate – in the event that the court finds against the defendant.
 

 

[gwebstech]

thank you, that sounds just how a court would expect it to be

[dx100uk]

please dont rush into this

lets do it properly by the book as we do all these lowell util debts and blow them out the water by our tried and tested methods.

there are lots of lowell claimform util threads for you to read.

your defence will be as bland and non informative as their poc but thats not due till day 33

please complete this:

and we will advice you properly

 

[gwebstech]

Which Court have you received the claim from ? Civil national business centre Northhampton

Name of the Claimant ? Lowell portfolio

How many defendant's  joint or self ? 1

Date of issue –  24th Oct 23

date to file defence - 24th Nov 23

Particulars of Claim

 

What is the claim for –

1. The claim is for the sum of £239 due by the Defendant under an npower account with an account reference of xxxxxxxx

2. The Defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required under the terms of the account agreement.

3. The debt was legally assigned to the claimant on 04-06-21, notice of which has been given to the defendant.

The claim includes statutory interest under S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issue of these proceedings in the sum of £19

What is the total value of the claim? £260
 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ?yes
 

Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? no
 

Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? NA

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? energy debt rented property
 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? no agreement entered but assumed (deemed contract) to have entered 2019
 

Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? see above
 

Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? no
 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. debt purchaser
 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? yes
 

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? yes
 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? i believe so
 

Why did you cease payments? NA
 

What was the date of your last payment? NA
 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No
 

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? no financial difficulties

I dont suppose it matters , but i just noticed on reading the letter from overdales a while ago, they say this current bill is related to a bill of £180 from Aug 19, that bill was never sent.

I have here approx 120 different bills or letters from Npower, and the debt collectors and that bill has never been sent

[BankFodder]

Without wanting to side with them too much, if they are suggesting that the bill was sent and if you think that the action refers to that in some way then you should be aware that the court may well accept that the bill was indeed sent

[dx100uk]

please note your corrected date of defence filing.

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
[if mcol is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time]
.
 register as an individual on the Gov't Gateway Site
Go to HMRC's login page.
Click the GREEN sign in button.
Click “Create sign in details”
Enter your email address where asked.
You will now be emailed a confirmation code. ...
You will now be issued with a User ID for your government gateway account.
 note down your details inc the long gateway number given, you might need it later.
 then log in to the MCOL Website
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked
 you DO NOT file a defence at this time
[BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ]
click thru to the end
confirm and exit MCOL.
.
get a CPR  31:14  request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/332546-legal-cpr-3114-request-request-for-information-when-a-claim-has-been-issued/

 type your name ONLY
Do Not sign anything
.do not ever use or give an email
.
you DO NOT await the return of ANY paperwork 
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]

..............

 

 

[gwebstech]

thank you guys, always welcome your responses

Can i ask, is it a common thing to send court papers based on estimated bills? how is that legal?

i have just emailed npower again to inform them that i will be taking legal action if they do not find my data.

[BankFodder]

Do be aware that they are not under any statutory obligation to store your data. In fact if they story and they have no further need of it then they could be breaching the Data Protection Act by "over processing".

The correct approach would be to require them to disclose the data or else confirm that it has been deleted.

[dx100uk]

7 hours ago, gwebstech said:

@dx100uk i have checked his credit file and nothing on there regarding judgements etc

i never asked for that i asked if this debt from npower/eon now Lowell showed.

3 hours ago, gwebstech said:

Can i ask, is it a common thing to send court papers based on estimated bills? how is that legal?

if you read a few claimform util threads, yes quite legal, you forget these people are a debt buyer and they don't care, nor should they. its a debt, they bought it, your dad is one line on a debt portfolio from eon. 85% blindly cough up because they wet themselves as its a court claim. hence their speculative claim.

im not being funny but i cant see the point of chasing eon or npower or whomever for whatever you think is missing ...this for 'lost data'. its not a missing olden egg that will provide anything that win the case for your dad.

he would of had a deemed contract with npower between his tenants, like he always would have had in all years previous with 'whomever' if there was a gap between his tenants. you cant escape that, it's how utility companies deal with landlords and their rental accommodation and have done for +40yrs. you go down the route of he was never a customer of npower and on that point you will lose hands down.

and indeed the attached below proves that very point in the npower letter overdales sent earlier and the very fact they have not inc the 2015 debt as its statute barred now.

you also, as @BankFodder points out will be sunk if lowells gain proof a bill was sent to him within 12ths from the period of usage in their POC, and i dont think the back billing rules apply to a landlords either, you might be best to move toward finding that out. have a read of the industry back billing rules and comeback here.

 

npower letter for deemed contract for periods 28-09-14 to 2-1-15 + 22-09-18 - 27-05-19.pdf

[gwebstech]

thanks dx and BF - Reading that it sounds like theres no point going to court?

the bill was sent within 12 months (22/9/18- 9/9/19).

I realise you know way more about this than i do but i can only say that if they are going to put someone on a deemed contract, then they need to do it properly - they havent from what i can see. They never told him about his chance to go onto as different contract at different rates, or the terms etc

Im not going to stand by and let them throw their weight around, they dont scare me, we've got nothing to lose if they've already got that bill.

They billed him first and then put him on a deemed contract, that cant be right.

They claim he entered into a contract in 2018 and yet in 2019 they admit they have had to ask who was responsible for the bill.

they ll be lucky to get a penny out of my Dad even if they win

Im not understanding the back billing rules make any difference if they've billed within 12 months like i mentioned above?

ive looked at the rules and Ofgem say the rules apply to micro businesses but i cant see anything specifically about landlords

[gwebstech]

Acknowleged service today, sent CPR yesterday recorded

my friend who has a fairly senior role at Eon, and works in commercial debt says that i should dispute the bill with Lowells, and add that to the defence when submitted as a court wont proceed with a disputed bill he says.

Have you tried that before on here?

He says Lowell are then likely to pass that back to Npower for clarification which might mean i get to complain to the ombudsman and get the bill re assessed?

[dx100uk]

lowell have purchased the debt it is nothing to do with eon anymore and they cant pass it back.

yes if you look at our previous defence you'll see a dispute is mentioned in it.

but you dont want to go into details thats for your ws if they ae brave enough to take it that far, they usually discontinue a few days before they have to pay the hearing fee.

it only a couple of £100's it wont be worth them spend lots on it they might never get back.

if you look just below your thread in this very same forum

theres one @Andyorch did yesterday

 

[gwebstech]

Thank-you dx, I'd read some of that yesterday. 

What is the "ws" you refer to? 

[honeybee13]

WS = witness statement.

HB

[gwebstech]

The defence needs to be filed soon, ive got this so far - can you let me know what you think please @Andyorch

1) I do not owe the claimant any money as they alleged or at all. I deny that I had an agreement in with the claimant. The claimant appears to have bought an alleged debt from a utility supplier and despite my statutory request for information both from the claimant and also the supposed energy supplier, they have not provided me with personal data relating to any of the claim, the alleged agreement, the basis of the agreement or how the sum claimed has been calculated. I personally turned the gas and electricity off whilst the house was empty for safety, so i cannot be responsible for any energy used.

Additionally, although there is a statutory provision for interest on claims, 8% is not a statutory sum and it is in the discretion of the court and given the current low rate of interest, 8% is completely disproportionate – in the event that the court finds against the defendant.

2) The claimant claims that contractual payments were not met. The Claimant is put to strict proof of the agreement, its terms, and the basis upon which they now say that the alleged agreement has not been honoured by the claimant if such an agreement exists at all.

3) The bill is currently in dispute with Lowells due to it being estimated

4) It is an estimated bill. Energy readings were provided at both the end of one tenancy and we have copies of the readings at the start of the next, so no need for an estimated bill, an agent even visited the current tenant within 14 days of her becoming a tenant, so there must be accurate meter readings.

5) The steering group guidelines section 2.4 SLC 28(8) clearly state what the procedures are that should be followed regarding deemed contracts. Despite numerous requests, the claimant has failed to provide requested information:

a) details of the principal terms of that deemed contract

b) written notice that contracts on terms other than deemed contract terms may be available and as to how information can be obtained as to any such terms

the claimant is put to strict proof that a) and b) were ever provided when the alleged assumed contract was started.

6) The claimants solicitors state that on 22/9/18 an account was entered into, yet a letter from Npower on 7/8/19 states that they are still requesting information as on who to bill, it goes on to say that if they dont hear back within 30 days they will put him on an assumed contract which clearly disputes the claimants solicitors letter.

7) Npower have confirmed they have NO record of any information regarding this customer nor this account. SAR has not been fulfilled to prove any account was ever created as stated by the claimant

We have no way of knowing how this bill is made up as it is partly due from another bill which has not been provided.

9) Under Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) Where the claim includes a MoneyClaim, a defendant shall be taken to require that any allegation relating to the amount of money claimed be proved unless he expressly admits the allegation. Therefore, it is expected that the Claimant be required to prove the allegation that the money is owed as claimed.

 10) The Defendant respectfully requests the court orders the Claimants to provide the necessary documentation in order for the Defendant to fully plead his case else the Claim should stand struck out.

 

We have found photos of the meter readings 3 days after the tenant actually moved in, and npower have overestimated by approx £70. The tenant cant possibly have used that much as she'd moved in those couple days, not living there yet.

I have told lowell the bill is disputed but ive not gone into any detail other than its estimated. Npower sent someone round just after the tenant moved in, and took meter readings.

This needs to be in by the 24th i believe. Do i need to add or edit anything?

[dx100uk]

thats a witness statement not a defence

go back to my last post and see the thread link and the example there that was used.

date to file defence - by 4pm fri 24th Nov 23

 

[gwebstech]

ok, ive looked at what Andy put there. Bankfodder wrote 1 and  most of 2 that i have put above, so should i use that or Andys  way of describing it?

Hows this? can you check it please @Andyorch and thank you dx

ive tried to combine what BF said with what Andy put in that other def statement

1. The Defendant sets out its case below and relies on CPR 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. The claimants claim is denied. I have never entered into an account with NPower. The POC refers to a failure to maintain contractual payments required under the terms of the account agreement. The claimant has failed to provide any evidence that any such agreement was in place.

The claimant appears to have bought an alleged debt from a utility supplier and despite my statutory request for information both from the claimant and also the supposed energy supplier, they have not provided me with personal data relating to any of the claim, the alleged agreement, the basis of the agreement or how the sum claimed has been calculated.

Additionally, although there is a statutory provision for interest on claims, 8% is not a statutory sum and it is in the discretion of the court and given the current low rate of interest, 8% is completely disproportionate – in the event that the court finds against the defendant.

2. There still remains an unresolved dispute with Lowells

3.  Pursuant to the civil procedure rules Practice Direction 16 (7.3) Where a claim is based upon a written agreement.

  1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be available at the hearing.

With the court’s permission the Claimant is put to strict proof to: -
   a) show and disclose how the Defendant has entered into an agreement.  
   c) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

The Claimant has stated they may request the court accept a contract existed based on other evidence available, in the absence of any signed contract, but has failed to disclose to the debtor, any evidence that a contract was ever entered into.

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

5. It is therefore denied that the defendant is indebted to the claimant as alleged or at all.

 

[dx100uk]

1 needs splitting up and moved further down 

and you need to use 1,2 3 from the andyorch defence post 17.. those pre amble paras at the start are important.

dx

 

[gwebstech]

OK, noted and amended. Thank you

 

1. I the Defendant contend, that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 

2. The claimants claim is denied. I have never entered into an account with NPower. I never lived in nor used any energy at that property. Therefore the bill in question relates to a period I was not the occupier of the property.

3. The POC refers to a failure to maintain contractual payments required under the terms of the account agreement. The claimant has failed to provide any evidence that any such agreement was in place, again it is denied as I have never held an account with NPower.The claimant has failed to provide any evidence that any such agreement was in place.

4. The claimant appears to have bought an alleged debt from a utility supplier and despite my statutory request for information both from the claimant and also the supposed energy supplier, they have not provided me with personal data relating to any of the claim, the alleged agreement, the basis of the agreement or how the sum claimed has been calculated.

5. Additionally, although there is a statutory provision for interest on claims, 8% is not a statutory sum and it is in the discretion of the court and given the current low rate of interest, 8% is completely disproportionate – in the event that the court finds against the defendant.

6. There still remains an unresolved dispute with Lowells

7.  Pursuant to the civil procedure rules Practice Direction 16 (7.3) Where a claim is based upon a written agreement.

  1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be available at the hearing.

With the court’s permission the Claimant is put to strict proof to: -
   a) show and disclose how the Defendant has entered into an agreement.  
   c) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

The Claimant has stated they may request the court accept a contract existed based on other evidence available, in the absence of any signed contract, but has failed to disclose to the debtor, any evidence that a contract was ever entered into.

8. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5 (4) it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

9. It is therefore denied that the defendant is indebted to the claimant as alleged or at all.

[AndyOrch]

The problem you face is that under landlord /tenant energy supplies any given vacant period will fall on the responsibility of the landlord hence the " deemed contract " whoever the utility supplier. He is liable for the standing charges during that period.

I think you need to be upfront in the defence and start your opening with that admittance you farther is a landlord and rents out numerous properties. The alleged debt in this instance relates to a period of when the property became vacant and meter reading were supplied to the supplier on termination of the previous tenant and the start of the new tenant. (you need to establish an exact time frame the property was vacant and that an estimated bill can not be appropriate and that any charges if such can only be a standing charge for that period and that the property was vacant.)

You should be able to easily calculate the standing charge for the period in question and I would advise that an admittance is made for just that amount...but the rest of the estimated amounts etc etc be denied.

 

Andy

 

 

.

[gwebstech]

Thanks Andy.

I understand what you're saying and I was going to add that to the defence but i thought it would go on the WS.

Id have thought that the whole point of this is that they haven't followed correct procedures for a deemed contract.

They've billed him and then told him they will put him on a deemed contract afterwards, many months after the bill, not to mention that they haven't followed procedures for such contracts which is surely worth a debate to a judge?

which do you think is the best avenue to go down?

[AndyOrch]

Undecided to be honest is it possible to work a standing charge figure out for the period that it was vacant ? The elephant in the room is this ludicrous invented standing charge that all utility companies charge irrespective of whether any energy has actually been used or not. It really needs abolishing.

It happens all the time even on normal house sales = the legal owner pays it until the new owner takes ownership like wise the previous tenant pays it until it gives notice (final readings) and the new tenant informs them they are now in residence but in the case of rented properties during the time its vacant the landlord becomes liable (man in the middle) and picks up the tab. 

If you could get a figure then we can review which is the best way forward, for argument sake if the Standing Charge equates to say £70 for the period it was empty it would be far easy to plead that than to get into arguments of deemed contracts.

Estimated charges are off the table either way in any defence given the property was vacant....also Lowell will not have a clue on how to defend as they have no knowledge of the history or the fact its a rented property and will be impossible for them to put any plausible argument forward to their claim.

[gwebstech]

The property was empty approx 7 months which i estimate to around £135 according to their bill and as stated, we have no way of knowing what the prev bill this bill is based on, is made up of

i think if they had looked into who owned the house earlier ( they didn't until 7/8/19 and they then gave him 30 days before a deemed contract would be put in place) and then put Dad on that contract then he's responsible for any money owed after that.

I personally think its worth arguing that they didn't follow the rules for such contracts but i await your advice.

Ive told Dad to screw them and go to court and have his say