PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover. *Claim Dismissed**

[dx100uk]

no go ahead.

lay rep sorry...

[Beesnees]

Quote

"i'm sceptical PRS even knew pannone had raised a claimform.!!"

Then sceptify no more.

I now have a letter from them in which they explicitly state that they were instructed by PPL PRS Ltd to pursue her for 2023 as well - after she had already informed them at least dozens of times in early 2022 that her classes ceased in June 2021.

It seems they are systemically and pathologically incapable of acknowledging, let alone putting on record, the fact that ppl's circs can and do change. Once they get their financial claws into you, they simply assume that you have entered into a contract with them in perpetuity. 

I also now have a statement of her account. Initially, I wondered why they were pursuing her for 2023 while apparently ignoring her 2022 'debt'. It's not like them to display any hint of generosity towards their hapless victims, after all.

Well, I now have my answer. It would appear that my daughter finally caved in under the pressure of all the threats and paid for 2022 as well!! At least, that's what the statement of her account shows. That means she's now overpaid them by close to £150.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the final straw. Add the stress that would have caused her to finally relent (and the symptoms she was displaying at the time, such as disrupted sleep pattern, accelerated/excessive hair loss, etc etc), and I believe we now have the makings of a viable counterclaim. 

Tell me I'm wrong - again. 

@ Everyone!!

Daughter advised she 'phoned PPL last week and was told she had nothing to pay!! Say what??

I don't trust anything they say, decided to phone the "court" directly to confirm if the claim was still live. I didn't want to waste my time with a CPR 31.14 Request, AOS, lodging a defence, etc etc, if it had been withdrawn.

After being subjected to about 7-8 mins of unspeakable drivel (listen for yourselves on tel. # 0300 123 1056), I finally got to the options. They jumped from 2 to 9, none of them applicable to me. My auditory nerve was then assaulted by the most horrendous jingle I have ever had the misfortune to hear - presumably created for the specific purpose of encouraging callers to hang up in the shortest possible time.

It worked!! After some 35 mins of tympanic torture, I hung up.

The missus then came up with a game-changer of an idea - "let's go on-line and see if we can find an alternative number that is actually manned". Brilliant, I thought. Let's do it. And wadaya know - we found this:  

county+court+business+centre+northampton - Google Search

WWW.GOOGLE.COM

Yes gentlemen, that's right. The so-called Northampton Court Business Centre is part of the same scam!! How come nobody here knew of this?

I was almost ready to waste and lose about a month's worth of 'spare' time, and all to no avail. I won't be wasting another second on this sham "claim" after I'm done here. I should have been a lot more alert myself.

On closer inspection, the Claim Form shows every sign of being a very poor quality copy.

As some of the reviewers have noted, the logo and crown are so 'pixelated' that they could easily be the work of a Pointillist. It is a fraudulent and edited copy of the real thing, and apparently the SFO are aware of this outfit.

But here's the rub. Despite all the above, many reviewers are still ending up with CCJ's on their credit files!! How is that even possible? Granted, at least one mentions how to get it removed, but even so ... How does a kangaroo 'court' have the authority to "issue them like lollipops"? I would dearly love to know.

Any ideas?

Edited June 27, 2023 by Beesnees

[honeybee13]

If they are using a photocopy of a claim form that doesn't exist, I'm not sure why you think Northampton CCBC are part of a scam?

HB

[AndyOrch]

Have you registered yet to use the on line response ? ...you must acknowledge service before next Tues 16.00.

[dx100uk]

and northants is totally automated so the robot does not know anything...

get on with it and stop wasting time on mass conspiracy theories else you'll screw up.

dx

 

[Beesnees]

@honeybee13 - I didn't say the claim form didn't exist. I said it was a poor copy.

@Andyorch - No, not yet. 

@dx100uk - Is that why you advised against a counterclaim? Coz robots are dumb when it comes to considering them? 

But OK, after some further DD, I'm still prepared to risk the C/Claim fee.

[AndyOrch]

Just make sure you acknowledge service on time and tick defend all...that's all of any importance for now. 

[Beesnees]

@Andyorch - I'll be submitting my AOS by noon 'morrow. Not taking any chances.

[AndyOrch]

[Beesnees]

RE: CPR 31 REQUEST

Do I need to disclose my filial relationship to the defendant?

[AndyOrch]

No you are sending and completing everything in your daughters name.

 

 

 

.

[Beesnees]

Say what? Now I really am confused.

Are you saying that I can't act in my own name on her behalf as her [para]legal 'friend'/rep/advisor? Even tho I have her express permission to act in that capacity?

[AndyOrch]

Yes you cant act or rather accompany but all the forms requests submissions must be in her name.....its her name on the claim form not yours.

[Ethel Street]

@Beesnees generally only a qualified lawyer is allowed to represent or act for someone in legal proceedings in county courts such as MCOL. 

Non-lawyers can only give support, they cannot sign formal documents for, or speak on behalf of, the person they are supporting.

[Beesnees]

OK, thanks. 

[Ethel Street]

@Beesnees if/when this comes to an actual hearing in court in front of a judge your daughter would need to be there in person but you could accompany her to her to give support and advice.

It's known as being her "McKenzie Friend" and she would be would be a "Litigant in Person" (LiP).

There's lots of information online about what you can and can't do in the McKenzie Friend role so you might want to do some advance research on it now.

[AndyOrch]

https://moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/mckenzie-friend.aspx

[Beesnees]

@Ethel Street - Thx for the heads up.

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if/when this comes to an actual hearing in court in front of a judge ...

Academic at this point, I know, but can they withdraw their claim before it reaches that stage? If so, is she then obliged to drop her counterclaim?

@Everyone:

CPR 31.14 Request - Am I entitled to ask for a copy of the Agreement that has her signature on it? IOW, unless she saw it, agreed and signed it, what proof is there that she is bound by its terms, etc? Is its mere existence sufficient proof of a contractual relationship?

[AndyOrch]

Yes they could withdraw or discontinue but that is usually on the submission of a good defence. No a counter claim can still continue as a separate Part 20 claim.

With regards to the contract all moneyclaims normally rely on some kind of agreement or acceptance be if verbal or documented. A CPR 31.14 request can only request documents referred to within the claimants particulars. The claimant fails to mention any agreement or document but instead relies on current legislation IE Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

If you look at their particulars and break it down its quite vague yet careful if not misleading.

1.The Claimants claim is for £105 in respect of an unpaid invoice rendered on the 01 February 2023, issued by the Claimant on behalf of it's members to cover the public performance of musical works at the Defendants premises (as per the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988) .

On behalf of its members is the salient point, is the claimant stating that it brings this claim because its been instructed by said member's ?

Member's of what ? The whole music industry ?  Who instructed them ? How have they or its alleged member's suffered any loss ? How can they prove she breached the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. ?

Obviously the claim is not based on an agreement so I see little joy in requesting or that the CPR 31.14 would render anything of value.

 

All points to consider when drafting your defence in which you will put them to strict proof to quantify and prove.

[Beesnees]

@Andyorch -  Err ....... hold the 'phone. Was I not advised earlier to send them a CPR 31.14 Request? Are you now saying it doesn't apply in this instance?

[AndyOrch]

On 23/06/2023 at 14:58, Andyorch said:

Duplicate posts removed upload is fine.

Just copy and paste that link here with your responses although most of it wont be applicable to this type of claim.

 

Andy

 

.

 

[AndyOrch]

I would advise you spend a little time researching this get rich quick outfit rather than arguing the process and advice we offer in dealing with the claim.

Keep your eye on your defence due date and start gathering information.

 https://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/jwwii-having-issue-prs-the-company-provide.html

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=PPL+PRS%2FPannone&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[Beesnees]

OK, thx for the links, but still not clear. Bin my CPR31 Request? Yay or nay?

And rest assured, I am both keeping an eye on the deadlines AND doing some DD on this racket.

[AndyOrch]

 

 

Quote

 A CPR 31.14 request can only request documents referred to within the claimants particulars. The claimant fails to mention any agreement or document but instead relies on current legislation IE Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

Obviously the claim is not based on an agreement so I see little joy in requesting or that the CPR 31.14 would render anything of value.

I didn't say bin it, you asked could you ask for a copy of the agreement. they do not refer to an agreement but they do mention unpaid bill , do you have a copy of this invoice ? do you have a copy of the "the Terms " of Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 ? Which they refer to and imply that they have been breached.

 

That's all they refer to in support of their claim. So I expect if you did utilise the CPR31.14 there would be little response but feel free to still send it and request whatever you wish.

[Beesnees]

Is not an agreement implied in the claim? Does not the PoClaim rely on the assumed existence of such a document? So you're saying that the claim is based exclusively on a manufactured breach of the relevant legislation? If that's the case, do the points you raised above about 'strict proof' come into play in the CPR31 Request?

Yes, I have a copy of both the invoice on which the claim is based, and a full stmt of her a/c since inception. Both provide me with solid grounds for an unassailable counterclaim. The legislation can [presumably] be found on-line, so making it the subject of the CPR Request would seem to be an exercise in futility and redundancy.