Taking Ebay UK to court over item sold and then ebay returns money to buyer

[theberengersniper]

I can't help but feel you were being slightly cheeky selling this camera, knowing it had a shutter fault, without initially mentioning it in the item description. The fact that you latterly updated the description to highlight the issue doesn't guarantee that your Australian buyer saw it, he may have placed his winning bid before you added your additional description, and therefore his complaint that he received what he may have expected to be a fully operational camera seems valid.

 

That doesn't affect your position now, and I mention it purely as a warning to others. I don't know if Ebay offers a method of contacting all bidders on an item, it's been years since I last sold anything on Ebay, but that would have been the sensible thing to do, giving them the option of withdrawing their bid.

 

 

[dx100uk]

The buyer is refusing to answer enquiries to send the item back?

 

You have send a return s label?

 

Dx

[frustrated1972]

The camera was listed as faulty.   The buyer admitted when he received it he had not read the description.

 

PART OF MY LETTER TO EBAY

 

On the 12th June 2022 I sold a Jaeger Lecoultre ‘Compass’ Camera to Ebay buyer Jun Wang (username - art.cameras) for the amount of £2500.

 

The buyer paid through Ebay payments on the 12th June, the total amount of £2519 which included the charge to send the Camera to Australia.

 

I would like to add at this point that the description on Ebay of the camera was added to whilst the auction was running which answered some questions I had received -

 

‘To answer some questions.
The Lens barrels do fully open and lock as required
The Spirit level is complete and working
The Filters and Stops all work.
The only thing I have been unable to do is to get the shutter to work.
I don’t know if I’m doing it correctly or if it needs a bit of work.
I have wound the wheel that works the shutter and it does ‘wind up’.

 

The Camera was sent to the buyer Mr. Wang in Australia and was received by him soon after.

 

On the 3rd July 2022 I received a message from the buyer saying he had received the camera but was not happy with the fact that the shutter was not working correctly, he considered it a major fault and asked if I had any suggestions to rectify the problem.

 

I replied to his message informing him that the shutter issue was mentioned in the description, to which he replied on the 5th July that he ‘didn’t see the additional description’.

 

He offered to get the camera looked at by his camera repairer or post it back for a full refund.

 

At this point I was not prepared to offer him a refund as I had mentioned the issues with the camera clearly, and he had admitted ‘not reading the description‘. I suggested he contact Ebay and go through the process of resolution.  I have had no further contact with the buyer.

 

On the 13th July 2022, 15:46, I received a message from Ebay informing me that Ebay were ‘stepping in’ to resolve the return, and that Ebay were going to take a look at the case.   

 

On the 13th July at 16:44 I received a message from Ebay, what I assume is a standard email explaining what happens when a buyer ‘receives the wrong item, it arrives damaged or doesn’t match the items description‘, None of which apply to this item.

 

Ebay stated in that message that you were placing the request on hold for four days to ‘give me time to arrange return shipping with the buyer’.

 

I contacted eBay straight away and spoke to a representative outlining my concerns and also that I had done nothing wrong with regards to mis-selling or misdescribing this camera. The representative implied that she understood my concerns and that Ebay would listen to them.

 

At 16:46 on the same day I received another message from Ebay telling me that the case was ‘temporarily placed on hold’ and that you would get back to me with an update by 18th July 2022.  

 

At this stage as unhappy as I was, I had assumed that you were going to give me a chance at least to explain this case to somebody in Ebay and therefore I did as you said and waited for you to get in touch by the 18th July.

 

I heard nothing more from Ebay until the 20th July when I received a message saying the ‘case is now closed’ and that Ebay had issued the buyer with a full refund of £2519. At no point from the 18th July, to 20th July was I contacted by Ebay.   

 

When I did receive the message that you had refunded him I was completely at a loss with knowing what to do. I contacted Ebay and was put in touch with the High Value Claims Department.  I spoke to a representative who told me that as I had not sent a label back to the buyer for return postage, the case had been closed. Ebay also told me there was nothing more that they could do and that their ‘hands were tied’ with regards to this case.

Ebay suggested that I send the buyer a return label, which would have cost me £20 or so, and that hopefully he might return it. I was not prepared to lose anymore money on the off chance he might or might not decide to return it.

 

Ebay suggested that I try messaging him to see if he would return it, they said if I had no response from him, then Ebay might try messaging the buyer.  But if he failed to respond there’s nothing more Ebay could do. Ebay also told me that as he had a good record, then they had no reason to believe he was acting unscrupulously.

 

I have messaged the buyer in Australia three times, and have had no response from him. My view being that he’s very happy to have kept the camera and to have had his money handed back to him, with no intention of returning it.

 

That, I hope outlines, what has happened.

 

At no point during this process have I had the opportunity to argue against this outcome. Ebay has not listened to my concerns and I am disgusted by the way Ebay have refused to get involved. Ebay have allowed the buyer to keep the camera and have returned him his money.

 

I consider the timeline of messaging to have been confusing and unclear. Had I not received your message informing me of the case going on hold, then I would have, ‘under protest’, sent a return label back.

[PIXeL_92]

When you listed this camera with the fault did you list the condition as used or for parts or not working?

 

Your main problem getting this resolved was ignoring the case, eBay set deadlines and always favor the buyer when it comes to claims. If you ever have this happen to you again make sure you upload a label otherwise they will find the case in the buyers favor after the date the give you to respond by every time.

[frustrated1972]

Have you not read what happened, I was prepared to send the label.

 

Then straight away Ebay sent me another message telling to wait the outcome of a review.

 

This message was sent 4 minutes after receiving the message to send a return label

[PIXeL_92]

You haven't actually said what date they opened the initial return.

 

You have "On the 13th July 2022, 15:46, I received a message from Ebay informing me that Ebay were ‘stepping in’ to resolve the return, and that Ebay were going to take a look at the case." They will only do this after a case has been timed out due to no response from the seller and the buyer then has to click a button on their return asking eBay to step in.

 

Did you sell it via the GSP (you send to a UK address and they forward it on for you or direct to Australia) and did you list the condition as "Used" or "Parts or not working?"

Edited November 29, 2022 by PIXeL_92

[frustrated1972]

Im sorry but I dont quite see why your questions bear any relevance, I'm well aware of the whole ebay procedure.

 

I do not use GSP??   What would that matter?

 

The fact remains that ebay handed over money to the buyer, let him keep the goods and sent me conflicting messages with regards to how to proceed.

 

 

 

 

[PIXeL_92]

The problem is because you ignored the initial return and they probably got sided with as you listed it as Used and not For Parts or Not Working.

 

You agreed to a set of terms and conditions when you created your account and eBay will have acted on those when you left it too late.

[BankFodder]

This thread is wondering off into an unhelpful discussion which is not really dealing with the issues .

 

 

Yesterday we recommended that you contact the bank on the basis of the direct debit guarantee .

Have you done this ?

 

In terms of your status as a seller, it is clear that you are not a private seller. I don't know if eBay has taken this into account or whether they will do when they find that they are challenged .

 

In relation to your contract with eBay, if it is on the basis of a status as a consumer, then it may be that you can take advantage of the provisions relating to unfair terms .

We will have to consider this .

 

I haven't read up on the eBay money guarantees but it seems to me that there are two steps. One is that they have an undertaking to the purchaser that they will guarantee their money back .

They have done that .

The other aspect is to recover their money from you by taking it from your account .

It is this part in the terms and conditions which I would like to see in order to understand .

 

Of course they reserve the right to make a decision and that their final decision cannot be appealed .

That would be a term of the contract. However, that term must be tempered by fairness. Certainly if it is a consumer contract .

Fairness means that they must not only stick to the letter of their contract, but they must also take care in the way they carry out their investigation and listen carefully to both sides.

 

If they have not done this then it could be argued that they have applied this part of the contract unfairly and therefore that aspect of the contract would be unenforceable .

 

We are waiting to hear if you have contacted your bank and what the result was. I'm a bit puzzled that you don't seem to have mentioned this at all .

 

We need to see the terms and conditions that they want to apply to you in respect of recovering funds that they pay out as a result of their money back guarantee

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

3 hours ago, frustrated1972 said:

The camera was listed as faulty.   The buyer admitted when he received it he had not read the description...

 

But did the description say it was faulty before the buyer placed his bid, and did he actually say what you think he did??

 

In your first post you stated:  "...The description on Ebay of the camera was added to whilst the auction was running which answered some questions I had received... " [my emphasis in bold];

 

and, according to the messages presented in the Defence document, the buyer told you that he "... honestly didn’t see the additional description down there."  [My emphasis in bold].

 

I might be entirely wrong, but how I interpret all that is that you amended the description of the item after the auction started, and the buyer is saying that he didn't read the amended description, not that he didn't read the description at all.

 

If I'd placed a successful bid on an item and discovered that the description had been changed to show that the item was faulty after I'd placed my bid , I'd want a refund too.  Is that what the buyer is saying has happened here?

 

It's also not clear to me whether the fault you described ( "The only thing I have been unable to do is to get the shutter to work.  I don’t know if I’m doing it correctly or if it needs a bit of work.  I have wound the wheel that works the shutter and it does ‘wind up’.")  is the same fault as that identified by the buyer, which seems to be more specific ("However the shutter speed ring is jammed even when it sitting in unlocked position. Which is not mentioned in the description. I’m not too sure if that’s connected with the shutter issue." )

 

It might have been better to say - as I think others have suggested - that it didn't work and was sold as spares, or for repair rather than to say that the only thing that didn't work was the shutter - a somewhat significant part of a camera mechanism...

 

(I know all the above is a bit off-topic from your original question, but you might want to give it some consideration before going further)

 

[Edit:  I can't comment on whether you or eBay complied with eBay's T&Cs here]

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[frustrated1972]

I have thought about contacting the bank but my concern is that I will lose my account to sell anything else on ebay.

 

That still leaves the outstanding amount which needs to be claimed for.

 

As I have initiated the small claims court for the full amount would that not cause an issue?

[dx100uk]

there are 2 huge hidden PDF's that are totally unredacted

we dont appear to have an actual copy of the original advert nor if it was auctioned as spares / repair etc

 

but in ebay's defence docs they say:

 

10. On 12 June 2022 the Claimant sold "Fine Jaeger le Coultre Compass Camera"
(Item) to another eBay account with the User ID "art.cameras" (Buyer). The
description of the Item can be found at Annex 2. The description confirms that the
item is in "excellent condition" and further confirms that "the only thing I have been
unable to do is get the shutter to work. I don't know if I'm doing it correctly or if it
needs a bit of work. I have wound the wheel that works the shutter and it does
'wind up'".

 

and the PDF below

Pages from Defendant1 (1).pdf

i will try to redacted some 50+ pages later.

 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

4 minutes ago, frustrated1972 said:

I have thought about contacting the bank but my concern is that I will lose my account to sell anything else on ebay.

 

That still leaves the outstanding amount which needs to be claimed for.

 

As I have initiated the small claims court for the full amount would that not cause an issue?

 

you simply make another a/c on PP with slightly differing details.

 

you would need to amend the claimed sum, thats simply done.

 

i would still use the DD guarantee.

 

can you clarify HOW you listed the item

simply as USED, or you used the spare/repair label.

 

dx

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

I think that what @frustrated1972 needs to clarify is:

 

1. What was the original description when the camera was first listed;
2. When was the description amended (looks like 17:07 BST on 05 June according to PDF page 15 of the defence document);and
3. When did the buyer place their winning bid.

As I said in my previous post, if I were the buyer I'd want a refund too if the description had been significantly amended after I'd placed the winning bid.

 

I can't comment on whether eBay acted correctly whatever the timing of events, but if the OP changed the description after the buyer placed their bid I can understand what eBay have done.

 

I think the OP should focus his efforts on getting the camera back from the Buyer.  (The Buyer certainly shouldn't be keeping it and the OP might be better advised to enrol eBay's assistance in trying to achieve that rather than suing them).

[dx100uk]

i have sorted the 2 pdf's.

 

i suspect that the item was only listed under the ebay category condition as USED.

not for spares or repair which is the correct way to list it.

 

dx

 

 

[PIXeL_92]

In your claim form and post here you have failed to mention the 7th of July being the date the buyer originally opened the not as described case giving you the chance to work it out with the buyer, this would have also given you a date to do this by with the warning that you could end up with no item or money per the t&cs when selling on eBay.

 

Ebay actually did you a favor after you didn't resolve it with the buyer to their satisfaction, they also didn't immediately find in the buyers favor (they normally do this,) and actually gave you 4 days to sort out a return shipping label for the buyer, from experience you will also get the warning again if you don't try to resolve you could end up with no item or money.

 

I have found your listing using the picture in the defense pack and it was listed in the "Used" category and not the "For Parts or not working." It also looks like you added to the description after a bid was received, if there was no bid placed it would have updated the main body of text and not added it as additional.

 

"Used: An item that has been previously used. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or an item that has been returned to the seller after a period of use. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections

For parts or not working: An item that does not function as intended or is not fully operational. This includes items that are defective in ways that render them difficult to use, items that require service or repair, or items missing essential components. See the seller's listing for full details"

 

I would say you have more of a chance of getting this resolved by trying to work it out with the buyer to get him to send the camera back, you can ask eBay to send them a message but that is all they will do, they have no obligation to try and recover the item or the funds from the buyer.

[dx100uk]

oppss listed as used , sorry IMHO if i was you - you should discontinue the claim too.

[PIXeL_92]

@frustrated1972any update?