Huge PayPal negative balance of £23k (business accounts)

[JHall2023]

Hi all,

Recently a series of direct debits failed as a result of insufficient funds in our bank account causing negative balances across two PayPal accounts of -£18k and -£5.5k.

I have reduced the first balance to just under £12k but haven't touched the other account.

It has been roughly 2 weeks since the accounts went negative and PayPal advised there is nothing I can do and the amounts are automatically passed to DCAs.

I have seen similar threads due to gambling etc but obviously these are personal situations and in my case it's a business liable. One of the business accounts is under a relative's name even though they aren't a director of the company - does this situation affect them? 

There is a balance of £500 from PayPal Working Capital and the system won't let me pay it due to a negative balance.

As far as I know, negative balances are not a form of credit so cannot be reported to CRAs but I am wondering if the impact of a debt collection agency can show on credit files.

Will the PayPal Working Capital balance default if this is thrown in with the negative balances and sent to a DCA? Ideally I'd prefer to clear that £500.

@dx100uk would appreciate your input (even though it's an LTD)

[fkofilee]

@dx100uk will be along later.

 

[dx100uk]

not sure where people get the idea that because a DCA gets involved in a debt they can make a debt magically appear on credit files, NO!! they do not have the magical powers to 'make it so'...they are not Cpt Piccard!!

a dca is not a bailiff

and have 

ZERO legal powers on ANY debt - no matter WHAT it's type.

were these accounts originally opened  pre-brexit?

[JHall2023]

Yeah makes sense 

One was opened in 2017, the other in 2021 - does this affect anything?

[dx100uk]

the later one poss. things changed mid year with updates agreements/t&C's

was it just a trading account (Ebay shop? thingy) and the £500 from PayPal Working Capital, what did you sign and was there a personal guarantee too you signed?

should be in your emails for that period.

but the 1st pre brexit is a dead duck for sure totally ignore unless they ever sell the debt on and you get a notice of assignment from a DCA/debt buyer and then a letter of claim.

 

dx

 

[JHall2023]

PayPal Working Capital just has an Agree and Continue button when you enter the company officer details. The business operates on a website and accepted PayPal payments. I didn't sign anything on WC

Just got this also: On 1st November 2023, your account will move from PayPal (Europe) to PayPal UK Ltd. Visit our FAQ page to learn more.

I’ve read up on the move to PayPal UK. Before they wouldn’t be able to take legal action as they were based in Luxembourg, now it’s not looking good as they’re taking control of accounts from the past and present. Maybe I should just bite the bullet arrange a payment plan with the DCA.

[London1971]

I don't know what your financial situation is but if the threat is to sell it on to a DCA, it really isn't an immediate worry. 

[JHall2023]

I think if PayPal sell the debt that makes it worse as the DCA are making it a credit agreement. If the DCA work on behalf of PayPal on a commission basis then it’s not as serious.
 

I do believe with the pending PayPal UK switch this has gotten much worse and they could potentially take legal action.

 

[London1971]

Maybe, maybe not, but a DCA is not an immediate threat, and can be safely ignored until such a time as if and when a Claimform arrives.  That point in time could be 1, 2, 5 years away or never.  So you losing sleep over this now is pointless.  It's also wasting money paying anything right now.

[JHall2023]

So if and when it gets to that point the DCA will still happily negotiate and accept an affordable payment plan?

The company owes £40k across legally binding creditors like NatWest and Funding Circle so I’d rather focus on these.

[London1971]

The DCA can be ignored until you receive a Claim form, at that point you can defend the claim. Debts usually get sold on to DCA's for pence in the pound because there is something wrong with them. When / if the time comes , get back to this thread and we will help you.

Stop worrying about this, it's, keep it at the back of your mind , ignore all the idle threat letters from the DCA. The one you are looking for is a Claim form, so make sure you open all of your mail, but as I say it may never happen.

Whatever happens do not make any payments to the DCA either.

[JHall2023]

I can certainly ignore letters, calls etc. The issue is when they send doorstep collectors. I know they’re not bailiffs and cannot enter but it’s a bit embarrassing isn’t it? I’m sure if the company is motivated enough they would send collectors

[dx100uk]

3 hours ago, JHall2023 said:

Maybe I should just bite the bullet arrange a payment plan with the DCA.

GOD NO NEVER PAY A DCA.

1 hour ago, JHall2023 said:

think if PayPal sell the debt that makes it worse as the DCA are making it a credit agreement.

total BS!!

1 hour ago, JHall2023 said:

So if and when it gets to that point the DCA will still happily negotiate and accept an affordable payment plan?

no totally ignore until/unless you ever get a letter of claim.

1 hour ago, JHall2023 said:

I know they’re not bailiffs and cannot enter but it’s a bit embarrassing isn’t it?

they cant do ANYTHING!! your next doors cat has more rights on your property

stop being scared and where ever you've read most of what you have posted...its TOTALLY WRONG.

1 hour ago, JHall2023 said:

I do believe with the pending PayPal UK switch this has gotten much worse and they could potentially take legal action.

rubbish, cant turn an eu debt into an enforceable UK debt - not ever ever possible. debts dead gone forget about it.

overall i think you'll get away with simply ignoring everyone. it's part of ebays business model anyway. you do realise ebay is reported to lose about £4.5M every week on bad debts and scams..they make 15 times that in profit mind.

i know someone with £47K business debt with PP EU from an ebay store he ran from 1998 right thru till 2022, oneday he just had to give up due to health. even though it transferred to PP uk after brexit... he never signed anything ever over all the years in june the sols for ebay uk wrote and said its been written off. no paperwork enforceable in the UK.

dx

 

 

[JHall2023]

Thanks for the info. I never mentioned eBay though, are you referring to PayPal?

[dx100uk]

samething as before brexit yourwere paying ebay thru paypal, ebay had no direct payment mechanism....think about it...

[JHall2023]

I’m confused. I don’t use/never have used eBay, this is all PayPal related

[dx100uk]

sorry i must admit i only though pp existed pre brexit  for businesses through an ebay  online shop.

but what you signed upto still falls outside uk jurisdiction until of recent.

id let it run.

 

dx

 

 

[JHall2023]

Don't think I'll let the Working Capital run though. Best to pay that directly with PayPal ASAP 

Jurisdiction

The Merchant irrevocably agrees for the exclusive benefit of PayPal that the English or Welsh courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction over any claim,

dispute or matter arising under or in connection with this Agreement or its enforceability or any non-contractual obligation arising out of or in connection with this Agreement and that accordingly any proceedings in respect of any such claim, dispute or matter may be brought in such courts.

Nothing in this Clause 8 shall limit the right of PayPal to take proceedings against the Merchant in any other court of competent jurisdiction, nor shall the taking of proceedings in any one or more jurisdictions preclude the taking of proceedings in any other jurisdiction or jurisdictions, whether concurrently or not, to the extent permitted by the law of such other jurisdiction or jurisdictions. 

[London1971]

I don't know your financial situation, but I'm guessing it isn't great, after all you are posting on this forum.  This is why I am trying to explain along with other members of the site team, who myself included have been through all this, that all that you should be worrying about are your priority debts eg mortgage / rent, Council Tax Energy Bills etc.

Paying anything to a DCA is a waste of your money, and is actually detrimental in that it keeps the Statute barred clock resetting. You fretting at this point about whether it's EU or UK Juristriction is at the very best a waste of your time and energy, because nothing is going to happen any time soon.

If Paypal were so sure that they could crush you in a court of law, don't you think they would have done it by now?  They have effectively written your £23k  off by selling it to some cowboys for 10p in the pound. Does that seem to you like they are confident it would stand up?

And lets get to the DCA who make their money by sending off speculative claim forms, hoping that they won't be defended, and thereby winning by default. You have found this place where there are all the tools you need to defend if the issue comes up.

Even if you ended up one day with a CCJ on this, honestly your world will not end, welcome to half the UK population! A judge will look at your income and expenses, worst case scenario £50 per month.

Yet here you are worrying yourself sick about a complete non issue. Stop!

[JHall2023]

Thanks for the help. I will keep you lot posted on what happens. Currently balances are still with PayPal and haven’t been passed to a DCA yet - I’ve paid the Working Capital facility off in full as it’s a form of credit.

Everything else will be ignored and I will concentrate on paying priority UK creditors and HMRC. 

[BazzaS]

You’ve said “company” and “director”.

Is this a limited company? Sole trader? Partnership? Limited liability Partnership??

If a Limited Company (which limits the directors’ liability, absent other liability), did any of the directors sign personal guarantees?

[JHall2023]

It’s a limited company. PayPal accounts just have an agreement when you sign up I guess. No signatures made for the PayPal accounts created.

One of the accounts is under a trading name rather than the LTD and emails are addressed to me personally. It is a business account though.

It’s up to the DCA to hold the directors responsible or the company. The liability only disappears in event of liquidation I think and we won’t be liquidating anytime soon.

[dx100uk]

14 hours ago, JHall2023 said:

Don't think I'll let the Working Capital run though. Best to pay that directly with PayPal ASAP 

Jurisdiction

The Merchant irrevocably agrees for the exclusive benefit of PayPal that the English or Welsh courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction over any claim,

dispute or matter arising under or in connection with this Agreement or its enforceability or any non-contractual obligation arising out of or in connection with this Agreement and that accordingly any proceedings in respect of any such claim, dispute or matter may be brought in such courts.

Nothing in this Clause 8 shall limit the right of PayPal to take proceedings against the Merchant in any other court of competent jurisdiction, nor shall the taking of proceedings in any one or more jurisdictions preclude the taking of proceedings in any other jurisdiction or jurisdictions, whether concurrently or not, to the extent permitted by the law of such other jurisdiction or jurisdictions. 

total bunkum!! might work in other eu countries but not the uk.

dx

[BazzaS]

3 hours ago, JHall2023 said:

It’s a limited company.
…….

One of the accounts is under a trading name rather than the LTD and emails are addressed to me personally. It is a business account though.

 

Activity by a limited company has to refer to the fact that the company has limited liability,. So “Acme products, a trading style of acme Ltd.”.

if this was done, and no person guarantees were signed : the directors are not personally liable for the company’s debts.

As for “ The liability only disappears in event of liquidation I think and we won’t be liquidating anytime soon” : If the company is insolvent the directors can’t allow it to continue trading / allow it’s losses to increase.

If they deliberately allow it to do so, then

a) that could create “personal liability” for the future losses (as they are breaching one of the directors’ fiduciary duties) and

b) could be barred from future directorships as a result.

[dx100uk]

open