Backdoor CCJ - Anglian water company - advice needed

[cakebytheocean]

I am hoping someone may be able to give some advice.

at the beginning of this year I received a letter from a bailiff advising me that they were going to apply to the court to get a warrant of execution I think it was and giving me 14 days to pay an outstanding court claim.

This was the first I knew about a court claim but after speaking to them it appears that I had a claim filed against me for a water debt at an address I had moved out of on Aug 2020.

I split from my partner and we both moved out of the property and I was led to believe that the utilities had been taken care of as he dealt with them.

this certainly hadn’t and the account was in joint names and I was taken to court but was unaware as the claim was sent to the old address.

when I spoke to this company, they said that I needed to contact the water company and get them to put a halt on the proceedings which I did.

I explained to the water company the situation and that I was prepared to pay the debt but would have to set up a payment plan as I was out of work. It also turns out that the amount of the claim included bills upto March of this year.

 

I explained that I moved out on Aug 2020 and could prove that and felt it unfair that I was expected to pay another 18 months worth of bill when the property had a completely new tenant.

they said that they would have to recalculate it and would let me know what the correct figure was.

after a couple of weeks I still hadn’t heard anything from them I rang them again and after being given the run around,

 

they my told me that because it had already gone to court they couldn’t adjust the outstanding amount and they said that I had to apply to the court to get the judgement set aside and then they could give me the correct figure to pay.

that is what I did and a date in January for the hearing has been issued.

I have today received an email from a paralegal working on behalf of the water company confirming the hearing date,

 

a copy of a form N434 Notice of change of solicitor which they have filed with the court and they stated 

 

"I have reviewed your application and as ******* Water were not made aware that you had moved out of the Property before the claim was issued, the claim ******* Water issued on November 2021 was served correctly in accordance with CPR 6.9 to the last known or usual address.

I confirm that ********** Water intends to oppose your application to have the Judgment obtained against you set aside."

The thing is, I have only requested the judgement to be set aside because the water company advised me to so they could adjust the outstanding balance and take off the bills from Aug 20 to Mar 22.

 

I wasnt doing it because I never actually received any correspondence or court claim.

Should I speak to the solicitors and explain this?

I am now at a loss and don’t know what to do. I can’t afford legal representation but feel I am being stitched up.

can I ask for copies of the voice recordings of the conversations with the water co?

 

Many thanks

[AndyOrch]

If you don't inform Utilities of a change of address the above is always a risk never assume someone will sort it on your behalf. They are correct in that the claim was legally served correctly in accordance with CPR 6.9 to the last known or usual address.

 

The amount of the judgment is in question and you are not denying you are jointly liable for some charge.

 

Have you prepared a statement to support your application hearing ?

 

Andy

[cakebytheocean]

Hi Andy,

 

Yes I understand exactly what you are saying.  

 

I was lead to believe by my ex that the utilites were sorted and I have registered with them in my new address.  Nieve I know but it is what it is.

 

I know that is not a reason to get the judgement set aside and in fact as soon as I was aware of it I did contact the bailiff company

 

They who told me to contact the water company and arrange payment agreement and ask them to put a holt on the proceedings which I did.

 

The water company asked when I moved out of my previous address which was some 18 months earlier

 

they said that they needed to adjust the bill because I wasnt liable for all on the judgement and they would let me know what the correct amount would be.

 

I never heard back from them so after a couple of weeks I called the water co back and after being transferred from one dept to another,

 

eventually I was told that they could not adjust the bill because it had already gone to court and I needed to apply to the court and get the judgement set aside 

 

then they would be able to recalculate the debt to the time the property was vacated and then I could settle.

 

I was just doing what i was told by the water co and now they say they are going to oppose it.

 

I just dont know what I an supposed to do now.

 

I am on a very low income and cant afford legal representation.

 

No I havent prepared a statement, I didnt know I had to do one.  Perhaps you could explain what I need to do.

 

Many thanks

[AndyOrch]

You could have made application just to amend amount of judgment not necessarily set it a side. Do you have written proof that the claimant was aware and has admitted that it is prepared to amend amount of judgment.

 

I think a statement in support of your application should include your story and what the Utility claimant advised and confirmed. Do you have a figure in mind of what you would be prepared to admit liability. ? Do you know if your ex has also had a judgment awarded against him ?

 

Its really simple to draft a statement in support and this should be filed with court not less than 7 days pre hearing and a copy served on the claimants sols.

[cakebytheocean]

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you for your help so far.

 

My knowledge of the legal system is minimal and I was just doing what I was advised by the water company, 

 

The only proof there is is in the recording of the conversations which I am sure they must do.

 

As far as the figure goes, I have no idea really. I didnt realise when I received the letter from the bailiff company that the claim included bills upto March of this year

 

it wasnt until I spoke to the water company, they asked me when I moved out of the property and moved into my new address which is in a different part of the country 

 

they said that they had to adjust the bill as I would only need to pay up to the date I moved out. 

 

Again the only proof is if the conversation was recorded.  I waited 2 weeks for them to get back to me with a settlement figure

 

when they didnt I phoned them again and thats when they transferred me from one dep to another and eventually told me to get the judgement set aside.

 

The account was initially taken out in my exs name only and I am puzzled as to how I ended up being added to the account but I was and I seem to be the one thats  been prosecuted.

 

Would it be a good idea to SAR the water company?

 

With the statement  is there a template to follow? 

 

Do I just submit it through the government gateway like my AOS and defence?

[AndyOrch]

Was this in rented accommodation or mortgaged property ?  They have gone for you because they cant possibly trace your ex.....but if you didn't open the account and it was in your ex name then you are not liable.

[FTMDave]

Look at the attachment in post 29 here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/442473-backdoor-ccj-vcsdcbl-spycar-pcn-no-stopping-southend-airport/page/2/#comments

 

I say post 29 but it may be post 28 or post 30 as sometimes the post count goes wonky - anyway, the post with the attachment.

 

Look at the last four pages of the attachment.

 

There is an excellent example of a set aside Witness Statement.

 

Now this case it very, very different from yours, so don't bother reading it all, but it shows the standard introduction and conclusion and how to set out your story as numbered points.  There is absolutely no need to use legalese.  Simply set out what happened in your own words.

 

The forum is always available for help in tweaking any draft you post up.

 

Meanwhile please answer Andy's questions, you have every chance of winning this.

[cakebytheocean]

Andy, It was a council rented property, I mutually exchanged out of area.  I had my mail transferred but there were issues with that in itself, it was hit and miss whether Royal Mail delivered or not. but I never received anything related to the water company.

 

FMT Dave, thank you so much also for your help, I will take a look.

 

Incidentally, I phoned the water company again today and I know everything should be in writing but I just wanted to confirm with them that they record ca.lls and the dates that these calls were made by me.

 

They did confirm all and they have said that they will request a listen in on the call to see if I was given the wrong information (which I obviously was).  They also confirmed that on the date of the call that they told me to get the judgement set aside,  they put in the notes that they were unable to adjust the account figure.

 

They have said that they will email me the notes so fingers crossed that they do and I can send the evidence in with my statement maybe.

[AndyOrch]

Okay thanks so what date is your hearing ?  and in the meantime can you redact upload a copy of the claim form and warrant then we can get a start on your statement.

 

I assume you don't have a copy of the original claim form so request details from MCOL Northampton and ask for a copy of the particulars of claim.

 

Andy.

 

 

.

[dx100uk]

Ring northants bulk and ask for a copy of the claimform by email pdf.

 

Youll need the ccj number from your credit file if tou dont already know it.

 

Cheeky buggers they can easily change the judgement figure and IMHO should be paying for the set aside by mutual consent as the judgement sum is wrong.

 

Dx

[comebackjimmy]

Why not get a Subject access request running.  that will require them to deliver all the records they have about the account including recordings.  they are screwing you around so time to do the same to them.

 

Once you have the records you may find a lot of useful information in there including stuff you can attach to your witness statement to support your story.

[cakebytheocean]

Just an update on this.

 

I have sent a SAR to the water company and are still trying to get a copy of the Claim form.

 

The files have been sent to my "local" court so Northampton cant help.  

 

When I contacted the local court it was a helpline desk and they said that you can no longer speak to the court, all requests have to be sent in by email.

 

I emailed them the request for a copy of the claim form and I got an automated response:

 

Quote

The Court is currently working in significant arrears, namely in listing and generating orders. Notification will be sent out in due course. Your patience is appreciated at this time.

 

Please accept this as confirmation of receipt of your email to the County Court at *************

 

We’re currently prioritising those customers who have hearings in the coming weeks so that we can notify all involved what is happening to your hearing.

 

If you are enquiring about whether  a forthcoming hearing is taking place, please wait to hear from us, we will not be replying to your specific email.

 

If your hearing is in the next two days and you haven’t heard from us then we will get back to you as soon as possible.

 

 I guess I just have to hope that it gets sent out so I have enough time to get my statement done for the court hearing which is in very early January.

 

I have also spoken to the water co's legal team who were very uncooperative to be honest ,

 

 I wanted to explain the reason the application to set aside was put in , in that I was told to do it by the water company themselves,  as they were unable to adjust the debt with the judgement in place. 

 

The calls were all recorded, there is proof that what I am saying is the truth and they were going to arrange to listen to the tapes. 

 

I have heard nothing back from them.

 

Is there anything else I should be doing whilst I am awaiting receipt of the SAR and claim form?

 

Regards

CBTO

[AndyOrch]

You can make a start on your statement and then add the details as and when.

[cakebytheocean]

Just an update.

 

I have only just received SAR from the water co and they havent included any tape recordings which is what I need to prove that I did exactly what I was told to do.

 

I havent started on my statement yet which I know I should have but my mind has not been focusing on it as my father was given a terminal diagnosis very recently which has been hard to deal with and he is now at the end stages of his life with us being told to expect it imminently.  

 

I am mindful that time is running out for this statement to be in, so I will try my hardest.

 

If I contacted the court, would they reschedule the hearing in view of what I am dealing with at the moment?

[dx100uk]

you would need to contact the claimant and the court for agreement i believe?

[cakebytheocean]

I have been contacted by the legal team of the water company and they have offered a Tomlin order on the correct amount due.

 

Initially they said that unless I could pay it in one lump it wouldnt work.  I explained that it would need to be in instalments as I dont have it.

 

They have come back and said 3,6 or 12 instalments.  This would prevent the court hearing.

 

Is this a good option or would I be better off going to court?

 

[dx100uk]

If you are happy the figure is now correct and with the instalments then agree. Are they stating they will remove the ccj too?

 

Just remember if you fail an installment anytime the ccj will happen.  Have you explained your sever low income and your father's Terminal illness too? Are they fully aware?

 

Dx

[cakebytheocean]

Should I expect the ccj to be removed when the debt is repaid or should they do it straight away?

 

Yes I have told them I can only pay in instalments as I am on a low income.  I have also asked them if they can adjourn the hearing for a short time as my father passed away last week and his funeral is the same week as the hearing.

 

I still haven’t done my statement which I need to do now but my head has not been in the right place this last few weeks.

[AndyOrch]

Quote

Should I expect the ccj to be removed when the debt is repaid or should they do it straight away?

 

what does it state in the Tomlin Order ...no need for a Tomlin Order if they are not going to set it aside.

[cakebytheocean]

Hi Andy,

 

They suggested a Tomlin order as an amicable settlement so I wouldn’t have to go to the hearing.

 

They have asked the court if the hearing may be adjourned briefly because of my bereavement,  they have said that the court has not responded as yet.

 

They have now emailed me again and attached a Consent Order (not a Tomlin order as originally discussed.  Not sure if they are the same thing?)

 

They have said that if I sign it the hearing will be vacated but I am obviously signing agreeing  to pay the debt in instalments as set out in the Consent order.

 

they keep harping on about me trying to get the hearing set aside because I didn’t get the claim as I had moved.

 

I keep explaining that this is not correct and I have only done it because I was told to do it by the water company so they could adjust the amount owed.

 

Its  so frustrating! 
 

I am just not sure if signing the order is the correct thing to do and don’t want to make the wrong decision. 
I am not disputing the debt but I am not working at the moment and if I sign the order I have to make sure I can meet the amount they are asking.

 

if I don’t sign and I need to get a statement in as I am running out of time.

 

just been struggling with it due to my bereavement.

[AndyOrch]

If you can scan redact and upload a copy of the Consent Order then Im not reading between the lines of how you interpret it and what they are proposing.

[cakebytheocean]

consent order.pdf

 

This is the email that was sent with the Consent Order.

 

"Good Afternoon,

 

I proposed a Consent Order to vary the Judgment against you in reflection of the document you sent, which shows you left the Property in August 2020 and as such are only liable for the charges raised between 01 April 2018 to 31 August 2020.

 

 Water will not be consenting to your Judgment Set Aside application as we were not advised that you had moved out and as such the claim  Water issued was served correctly under CPR 6.9 to the last known or usual address.

 

If you agree to the proposed order then please sign it so I can file it with the court thus settling the matter amicably without the need for a hearing.

 

If you do not agree with the order then I feel its best we leave it for the judge to decide at the hearing.

 

Please note I have not yet had a response to your request for an adjournment.

 

Kind Regards,"

Edited December 22, 2022 by cakebytheocean
error

[BankFodder]

Pardon me butting in here – and of course I will defer to my site team colleague @Andyorch, if you haven't received the documents, then that is one of the fundamental reasons for having a judgement set aside.
Secondly, we haven't seen the claim form but presumably they have claimed for a certain amount of money and it is clear that you don't owe that much.

On that basis, their claim must fail. They don't stand a reasonable chance of success if it is allowed to go to trial.
That means that, in my view, both requirements for a set-aside have been satisfied.
One, that you didn't have knowledge of the claim, and two, that the other side would not be able to succeed in their claim if you defend it.

So that means that they would need to put in an amended claim.

It seems to me also that the Tomlin order is disingenuous and only tells part of the story. It confirms that you are not liable for part of the debt. It confirms that the water company knows about this and accepts it.
However, if the consent order is used, then it should also refer to the fact that you had vacated the premises and had never received the claim papers and were not aware of the claim against you.
Of course this is something that the water company won't want to include in the consent order because as soon as a judge sees it, the judge will reject the consent order and will want to know more and will probably agree to the set-aside.
The water company is being dishonest here and frankly I have no idea why they want to proceed in this way when in fact the more reasonable approach for them would be to simply agree to the set-aside on the basis that you would give them the Tomlin order to pay the money according to some agree instalments.
I suppose that they want to avoid the cost of them all having to refund you the cost of the set-aside application.

My own view is that you should not go along with this. You will end up with court costs against you and more importantly CCJ

We understand from you that you would have paid the money if you had known. We understand from you that you are prepared to go ahead and start paying.

 

I would suggest the way forward here is to reach out to them, tell them that you will bear the cost of the set-aside application but you will not give it up. Tell them that the draft consent order that they have supplied to you and which has not been given to you without prejudice, will be put before the judge as evidence that they agree that you don't have that liability and also evidence of the fact that you now accept that you were not at the property at the time in question and therefore could not have received the papers.

This will guarantee your set-aside and also if the water company does not agree, you will also be awarded the cost of your set-aside application in all probability.

 

If you put it this way to the water company, that if they will not agree to the set-aside then you will continue and ask for the cost of it, but if they would agree to the set-aside then you will bear the cost and also enter into an agreement to pay the agreed debt by way of an agreed scheme of instalments, I would have thought that they would be amenable to this.
If they refused then I would bring it all to the judge.
The judge will be massively in favour of a sensible adult and businesslike arrangement which spares the resources of the court. The judge will realise how unnecessary the water company is being in pursuing the matter in this way.

They say in their message to you that the claim papers had been correctly served. That may be correct, but the important thing is that they have been received and you were not aware of the process against you.
It will be interesting to know what enquiry they made. If they have been sending correspondence that address and have received no reply, then they should have been on enquiry. They would actually have a better claim against the new tenant who it seems has not been paying anything.

 

What are the proposed instalments so far? Have they been agreed?

 

Do not mark any of your correspondence with the water company "without prejudice". It's important that a judge can see every scrap of your correspondence

 

 

Please will you post up the claim form in PDF format.

Please tell us how quickly you apply for your set-aside after having become aware of the claim against you and the judgement against you.

I'm also curious to know that if you weren't at the address, how did you come to know that a judgement had been issued against you anyway? You say that bailiffs visited but this must have been an address other than the address contained in the claim.

[BankFodder]

And by the way, which water company? You've redacted their name. Why are you trying to protect them?

 

Also, to add, don't be frightened of so-called lawyers who are acting for water companies. For the most part they are a load of paralegals who couldn't get a job anywhere else and they want the easy money, good retirement conditions and broadly 9-to-5 working hours.

They are churning out the same kind of stuff day after day after day – and that's what you're getting here. No imagination. No business sense

[AndyOrch]

I'm not really sure what they are requesting in point 1 by varying the judgment period by 2 years less from 31st March 22 to

31st Aug 20 that requires further clarification. (Particulars of claim/judgment?)

 

They accept your liability ended 31st Aug 2020 I assume you proved this as no longer residing at the property?