Lowell/Overdales Claimform - old Lloyds TSB loan facilitated by Loans Direct debt subject to existing 2009 CCJ ***Claim Discontinued***

[j70han]

 

Since I found that old document today, I think you both  might be right.  The document was a true reflection of my financial circumstances at the time - Nov 2011and it had to be 100% accurate.   

 

I've checked my bank statements going back to 2016 and crossed matched the payments I declared I was paying and to whom, on this document, and it looks like the  £15 to Lowell was for a Capital one CC.   

 

The £30 I was paying towards the Lloyds loan was to Westcott Credit Services. Which means Westcott either passed it back to Lloyds who then passed it back to Lowell's?   

 

Either way, I'm 100% sure now that the loan was subject to a CCJ, as I declared it at the time and it would have still been on my Credit file.   

 

Is it still worth phoning Lowell or just continue with my defence? 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

The loan was not sold by lloyds to lowell till 06/18.  Everything makes sense now.. you were paying Lowell on a cap1 card.

 

DX

 

 

[j70han]

Yes, my confusion and thankfully i managed to find that old saved email detailing my payment plans. 

 

 But still doesn't make sense why i was paying Westcott £30 per month for the loan in 2017, which I believe is correct, and then Lloyd's passing the loan to lowel    in 2018.   

 

Why would Westcott send it back to Lloyds... But I'm 100% sure now the loan was subject to a ccj. 

 

Also, none of my payments to Westcott appears to have been credited.  

[dx100uk]

Wetcloths don't buy debts, only collect for their stated client. Probably another debt again all together, poss even not lloyds.

 

the debt was not passed to lowell it was sold and their notice of assignment will state by whom.

 

 

[j70han]

OK, well if Lloyd's did own the debt up until 2018 and it's  possible the Westcott payments are for something else, then I have made no payments to Lloyd's in well over 6 years.  Which might be why nothing has been credited.. So could the Loan be statu barred as well as having a CCJ.  Or, because of the CCJ it will never be statu barred.  

 

I was tempted to phone Westcott about the payments, but don't want to engage with them in case it prompts them to pursue me again, I still get letters from cahoot for some debts. 

 

Ii will phone my bank first re Westcott payments and then if needs be phone Lowells.  

[AndyOrch]

Right can of worms......always pays to file paperwork away for at least 6/8 years.

 

Their particulars state that it was a Lloyds account with the reference XXXXXX  assigned to Lowells in June 2018.

I would contact Wetcloths and find out what account /debt you was paying them £30 pm ?  because you really should know where that money went and to whom and for what debt.

 

Still have a couple of days to get to the bottom of this but its vital to the proposed defence.

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

You have the notice of assignment, lowell assigned it to lowell portfolio 1, 06/18. I suspect lowell bought it from lloyds some years previously

[j70han]

 I've spoken to my bank and they have to send me printed copies of my statements going back to 2016, which will show the account numbers being paid for all three creditors I was paying at that time.

 

This  hopefully should be with me in 5 days. I'm kicking myself, as I should have done that weeks aga, as don't think it they will come through before Friday

 

I've just spend almost 60 minutes on the phone to Overdales Solicitor's.  I advised them that I did not recognise the loan and the only loan I had with Lloyds had already been subject to a CCJ.  They advised me that Lloyds would not have passed it on to them if it had gone through the County Court.

 

They advised me the following : - 

 

I took out the loan  on 01/05/2005.     The Determination date was 22/08/2008

 

The default notice was issued on 22/08/2008 for £9,980.27.    I did question this and if it was legal to take me to court based upon a default notice issued on 22/08/2008, but they declined to comment and said, oh yeah it is along time ago.  

 

The last payment  made was to Lloyds Banking Group PLC for £30 on 05/07/2017.  I asked them to provide me with details of this payment - bank account etc. and any other payments made, they were unable to do so. I advised them that I have never made any payments in the last 10 plus years to Lloyds and my bank account will prove it. 

 

I did not mention Westcott payments of £30, which is the only £30 DD going out of my account during that date and coincides with my records that this DD was for the Lloyds loan. It also coincides with the last DD paid to Westcott for £30.

 

The last statement Balance was £8,974.34.  I questioned this as the County Court documentation states they are claiming £8,154.01, plus costs, especially the difference in pence. 

 

I was kept holding for ages at this point and was then just advised that they don't know and I should complete the Income and expenditure claim form sent by the court and send it back to them. They were unable to provide me with a statement date. 

 

So, assuming Lloyds held onto this account from 2008 to 2018, where are the payments I was making to Westcott, for which my records indicate was for this loan, being credited as being paid to Lloyds.   

 

I can't find anything connecting Lloyds and Westcott and assumed Westcott bought this debt, but then how did it end up back with Lloyds. 

 

I only made agreements with three creditors,  Lloyds £30 and two others for  £15  per month.  I've only ever had one £30 DD which was with Westcott.  I've also only ever had one bank account in this time, so there is no doubt I have not paid anything to Lloyds, especially in six years. 

 

Is it possible the payments credited against this loan belong to someone else?  But the time frame coincides with my DD to Westcott,  which was cancelled in July 2017.     

 

They couldn't answer any further questions.  I advised them that they needed to per my request under CPR31.14.  I was then advised that they would give me until 15/03/2022 to return the Income and expenditure claim form to them. 

 

I asked them to contact the court to confirm this, but they just said that they've agreed to withhold court action until then and I needed to return the Income and expenditure claim form to them.

 

If they didn't get it by 16/03 /2022 they may recomence court actions.  The person I spoke to then just became like a brick wall  repeating the same thing about  Income and expenditure from. 

 

I thought I was recording the call on my phone, but sadly it hasn't recorded properly.  

 

I don't trust them so assume I need to still defend this by 4th...  But I could have multiple defences now?  

[dx100uk]

3rd time.

Wetcloths dont buy debts they act for their stated client. If wetcloths were not collecting for lloyds then the payments went off another debt, but you say you only had 3.

 

pers i think as you said agreed £15 on the phone after the ccj, id say you are getting mixed up and wetcloths never were collecting rhe ccj loan debt.

 

Dx

[j70han]

 

 

Ah OK, sorry, im confusing this. That makes sense, I was paying £30 to  Lloyd's through Westcott. 

 

When I stopped in July 2017 they sold the debt on to Lowells. 

[dx100uk]

how do you know lloyds were even wetcloths client? you dont.

 

 

On 16/02/2022 at 17:42, j70han said:

Hi all,

 

I got the attached letter today from Overdales with two letters showing my debt was transferred from Lowell to Lowell portfolio 1 Ltd in July 2018, referred to as "Notice of Assignment". 

 

scan up these two letters.

 

2022-02-11 overdales reply to CPRf.pdf

 

On 02/03/2022 at 17:45, j70han said:

The Determination date was 22/08/2008

whats the determination date?? no such thing

[j70han]

Sorry, that should read 22/03/2008, not 22/08/2008.  I did ask, but she couldn't say, she assmued it might be when i stopped paying. But gave me the date as it was on their records. I thought it might mean something, so added it to my post.

 

[AndyOrch]

CPR 15.5 May be useful here...but you will have to agree and move sharpish

Agreement extending the period for filing a defence

15.5

(1) The defendant and the claimant may agree that the period for filing a defence specified in rule 15.4 shall be extended by up to 28 days.

(2) Where the defendant and the claimant agree to extend the period for filing a defence, the defendant must notify the court in writing.

 

 

 

.

[j70han]

Thanks.

 

OK,  I've been reading up and just want to ensure I've got this right.

 

I notify the court that I've been verbally given until 16 March 22 by the claimant. I also notify Overdales that I'll be filing a CPR15.5 to the court based upon our verbal agreement yesterday, which also allows them to comply with CPR 31.14 and to clarify the discrepancies between the amount claimed and the balance on the last statement for this account. 

 

Also, do you know if I can file the 15 5 through the online portal, otherwise I'll be cutting it fine for postage.  

 

Many thanks for your help with this. 

 

Thanks.

 

OK,  I've been reading up and just want to ensure I've got this right.

 

I need to obtain written agreement from the claimant to provide to the court. The verbal agreement is not sufficient to file a 15.5. I did request this yesterday, but they just said, they've  noted my records etc. And didn't want to do this.  I'll ring them again today and ask for confirmation in writing or email. But if I don't get it, then I wondering if it's just best to file a defence based upon the following:-

 

The particular of claim are vague and i don't recognise the loan. I had one loan with Lloyd's which was subject to a CCJ. Due to the vagueness of the PoC i am unable to determine if this is the same loan and, as such, if i should be filing a defence under Res Judicata. I therefore set out my defence on what I do know.   ( I can also include my redacted documentation relating to my declaration in Nov 2011 where I state I am paying £30 per month towards a Lloyd's loan which I have a CCJ) I'm assuming this still leaves the door open to file a further defence under Res Judicata)

 

I then proceed with my defence around the vagueness of the PoC, assignment letters addressed wrong, default notice issued in 2008,  discrepancies with the  amount claimed through court and the last  statement balance,  failure to provide documentation requested under 31.14,  or the CCA agreement showing this is in fact my loan and adheres to CCA 1974 etc. 

 

Many thanks for all  your help and advice with this. 

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Verbally wont cut it you require it in writing (email will suffice)...then use email to inform the court....followed up by hard copy.......you would get the full 28 days extra. The claimant cant delay the process by verbally agreeing this with you.....only the court.

 

If this fails we can still file a modified defence and then a fully particulrised account later in the process once we get to allocation.

[j70han]

Spoke with someone who was a bit more helpful today at Overdales, however they are not willing to put the fact that they have agreed to withhold action until 16/03/2022 in writing and advised me that their word is enough.  Also, they don't communicate over email, despite trying to get an email address from me at the beginning of the call. 

 

They advised me that the court doesn't decide on when my limitations for filing a defence are, they do,  and I now have their assurance that I have until 16/03/22 .   I'm pretty sure this is incorrect,  as I assume once the process is in action it is governed by legislation?     But I was assured I had until 16/03/22 and should accept it.  Thankfully I managed to record this call  just for my protection.   

 

I also got a bit more information about the Loan and payments.  A payment of £30 was made to IQOR on 05/09/2011 - NFDs held.  I've looked online and can only find an old DMC called IQOR Recovery Services Ltd which then became AKINIKA DEBT RECOVERY LTD on  31/05/2013.    It was then passed to Westcott, who were working for Lloyds, on 20/12/2011 and regular payments of £30 were made to Westcott from 03/02/2012 to 05/07/2017.  Then Lowell bought the debt  from Lloyds in June 2018.   Am I allowed to obtain the amount Lowell purchased this loan for ? 

 

My last statement date was 06/03/2018 issued, by Lloyds.  The statement balance given to me yesterday of £8,974, included a Lloyds/TSB bank account overdraft, the court claim form only covers the Lloyds Loan. I've never had anything about this overdraft and am pretty sure it's statue barred anyhow.  

 

They have received a copy my signed credit agreement from Lloyds dated sometime in 2005, but couldn't give me the exact date on the agreement because the photocopy has a line through the date.  I have requested that these documents be forwarded to me as asap as requested. 

 

Having read another thread on here, I'm not going to trust their say so that they will take no action, and I don't want to miss my deadline to file a defence.   I'm not sure what a  "modified defence" is {have looked} but I think I have tried to get sufficient information around this Loan, which the Claimants cannot or have been unable to provide.  

[mantis shrimp]

you can write to confirm the conversation and what was said to you. Send a copy of your letter to the court. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by mantis shrimp

[AndyOrch]

Let me clarify

 

By "  withhold action  " this simply means they will not request judgment before 16th March 4.00pm should you not have filed a defence by this date.

 

The process is that you have 33 days in total once you have acknowledged service and stated you intend to defend all of the claim ....they cant request judgment until this period has expired. They could request judgment once it has expired IE Monday 7th 4.00pm (CCBC will not action anything over a weekend)

 

Its pointless writing to CCBC that you have been given verbal notice that an extension has been agreed up until 16th March. Not unless CPR 15.5  has been agreed and put in writing do you have any protection so you really are trusting the claimant to honor their word....risky.

 

So given that they will not consent we push on and will have a defence ready for tomorrow...not ideal but it will give you breathing space and allow further time to get to the bottom of this debt. I can draft a mixture of holding and disputed type of defence I can imply that is is thought the debt is already subject to a judgment although I'm unsure now we see that there was a loan and an overdraft in question with Lloyds.

This is muddying the waters.

[j70han]

Thank you Andyorch, I really appreciate the advice and help you and dx have given to me so far.    

 

Yes, ignore the overdraft, from what I was told today, it was part of the sale to Lowell when the acquired the Loan. I was advised of the statement balance yesterday, which confused me, as it was more than the the amount being claimed through the court. 

 

I just thought I'd clarify that, as i'd mentioned it in a previous post. I've not paid anything to that overdraft since 2007/08, so it is definitely statue barred and not relevant to any defence, other than it was part of the last statement balance sent to me in 2018.   

 

One thing that came out of todays telephone call is their insistence that, as I made the last payment less than 6 years ago, they can take me to court, without needing to provide me with the correct paperwork. There was no reasoning with them. 

 

I was also advised that, if they can't provide me with the documentation I've requested, it's not their problem, it's because the debt is so old,. Again, despite me telling them, they had to by law, it was pointless. 

 

I  guess it's the mentality of  the phone handlers who are probably not trained or actually trained to say these things, but it is why I just don't trust them to not file a CCJ on 7 March,  so I will sleep better knowing I have filed defence.

 

Many thanks 

 

 

[dx100uk]

ain't goin' nowhere without enforceable paperwork thats for sure.

oh the wonders of the lying they always do on the phone.

 

and the potential previous litigation.

this could be fun.

 

On 02/03/2022 at 12:12, j70han said:

Yes, that's a point to... If I owed approx £7,900 in Nov 2011 and was paying £30 per month for more than 6 years... where do they get the figures of £8100 from. I'd of at least paid over £2k...   

 

because you were paying off against the overdraft account i bet not the loan and never have paid that off at all.

 

PLEASE scan up these notice of assignment letters i pointed too a few posts up.

 

On 16/02/2022 at 17:42, j70han said:

Hi all,

 

So I got the attached letter today from Overdales with two letters showing my debt was transferred from Lowell to Lowell portfolio 1 Ltd in July 2018, referred to as "Notice of Assignment". 

 

 It states that the remaining documents asked for, which were:-

 

-The Default Notice

-The Termination Notice 

-The Statement of Account 

-Details of the Contractual payments

 

 will be forwarded to me in due course, but there is no time frame given.

 

From my calculations I have until 04/03/22 to file a defence otherwise it goes to court.  

 

I was just wondering what to think of this reply.   If they fail to produce the documentation requested under 31.14 by my court date,  do they have to stop action, or would it be up to me to still file a defence?   Would the fact these documents have not been provided to me be a suitable defence? 

 

Many thanks for any help and advice  you can give.

 

20220216_110217.jpg(1).PDF 3.49 MB · 10 downloads

 

 

dx

 

[j70han]

Hi dx,

 

These are the two Notice of Assignment letters I received. Both dated the same date and under the same Lloyds loan account number. Hopefully they've uploaded ok. 

 

They were sent with only a partial address and missed off the first line, so it's highly likely they were not received by me. 

 

Just for clarification, when I spoke to Overdales today, I queried the statement balance of £8,974, which I was given during my previous days telephone call with them, as the court claim was for £8,154. It was at this point they advised me that Lloyds had also sold them the Overdraft of approx. £870.   I've never paid anything against this OD since it defaulted in 2007/8.  I can confirm I did make payment's towards the loan.

 

Many thanks 

 

 

LOA1.pdf LOA2.pdf

[AndyOrch]

 

 

 

Particulars of claim.pdf

[j70han]

Thanks Andyorch.

 

So the POC show the following: -

 

Amount claimed: £8,154.01 

Court fee: £455.00

 Legal Representative's costs £100.00

Total amount: £8,709.01

 

Thanks 

                         

[AndyOrch]

 Sorry...I dont follow ?

[j70han]

Hi dx, 

 

The attachment to Andyorch's last post asked what the total value of the claim was, so I just broke it down in my last post.