5 CCJ's+restriction k's - been paying 2 after order of sale attempts . **RESOLVED £52K saved - NONE PAID but on-going**

[gtn]

Hello CAG Forum,

 

I jointly own our home with my wife. We are currently up-to-date with our mortgage payments, but that could change in the coming months and we managed to fight off an order for repossession in 2019 due to mortgage arrears. We have just over 3 years on the mortgage left, but cannot see the finish line so we have decided to sell and downsize. The aim is to be mortgage and debt free.

 

We have 5 charging orders from loans and credit cards from around 2007 to 2010. The 5 CO's are in sole names, 1 for me and 4 for my wife. We are currently paying 2 of the CO's off at £70 and £20 per month, but it will take years/decades to clear them. The total value of the 5 CO's today is circa £35K. In 2011 and 2017 two of them offered a 40% discount for settlement, which we could not afford. In 2020 another one offered an 20% discount for settlement.

 

There is enough equity to clear the CO's in full from the proceeds of the sale, but I would like to negotiate a settlement on all 5 CO's of 40%. This will mean we are mortgage and debt free and have some cash left over. Does the fact that the CO's are in sole names and the house is in joint names help?  Looking for any advice to assist on negotiating a settlement. Thanks in advance.

[fkofilee]

Wait for @dx100uk - Are these restrictions K? 

[gtn]

Thanks for the reply. I am not 100% sure what Are these restrictions K? means.

 

If it means interim charging orders then no, they are full charging orders.

 

Ok a bit more background on this. In all 5 charging order cases:

1. The creditors obtained a CCJ in sole name
2. They then obtained an interim charging order
3. They then obtained a final charging order
4. The charging orders are registered with the Land Registry
5. The debts were either sold on or are managed by DCA's
6. In 2 cases they applied for an order for sale which we defended, hence 2 are being repaid monthly

 

[dx100uk]

of course they are rest k's , sole debts, joint ownership. you don't have to negotiate nor tell them in most cases 

 

interesting these fleecers have tried for an order of sale on a restriction K! ..really! what fleecers.

 

i question the wisdom of selling up if you like where you are just because of these debts...unless you have other debts.

 

The court can only order a sale where:

the debt is in your sole name and you are the sole owner of the property, or
 the debt is in both the names of the joint owners of the property.
 If the debt is in your sole name and the property is in joint names, the creditor could in theory apply for an order for sale to realise their interest in the property, but it's but useless to them. Your creditor will have got an interest in your share of the property if/when the final charging order was made.

 

Lowell interim charging order from credit card debt 2009 - General Debt Issues - Consumer Action Group

 

Remortgage issue with restriction k's - Mortgages and Secured Loans - Consumer Action Group

 

Nationwide credit card CCJ and CO (Restriction k) going to sell soon **RESOLVED BY REDUCED SETTLEMENT** - Nationwide - Consumer Action Group

 

 

dx

 

 

[gtn]

Ok thank you for the response and links, those were useful.

 

So the wording and registration of a Final Charging Order with HM Land Registry is just a scam and these are actually restriction K's because they are sole debts against a jointly owned property. Is that correct?

 

For 100% clarity are these Final Charging Orders as worded by the Court and Land Registry or restriction k's?

 

The next step then is to read the wording of the Final Charging Orders/restrictions K's (?) as that seems to be a key element.

 

I know if I was buying this house I would want the charges/restrictions removed before or at completion of the sale. I don't have the funds to settle prior to completion.

 

Order for Sale X 2. I went to court for the hearings and agreed a small monthly repayment. If I had not attended then they would have been granted an order for sale, at least that was the advice I was getting.

 

Selling & Debts: We are selling because we cannot see getting past the next 3 years of mortgage payments, which will lead to a repossession order from the mortgage provider. If we sell and I can arrange a settlement with the vultures we can downsize and be mortgage free and debt free. Our current debt levels are low and manageable for now. These will be cleared in full when we sell and downsize, provided I can negotiate a settlement of around 60%

 

 I have just obtained a copy of the Title from Land Registry. This shows under section B Proprietorship Register:

1. Proprietor me and my wife with the property address
2. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
   by the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered
   without a written consent signed by the proprietor for the time
   being of the Charge dated XX/XX/XXX in favour of X referred to in the Charges Register (I'm assuming this is the mortgage provider)
3. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
   is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant
   for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the
   disposition was given to X1 (Ref: X1)
   at care of XYZ Solicitors,  (Ref: X1) being the person with
   the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N made by the County Court
   on XX/XX/2007 under claim number X1.
4. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X2 at care of ABC Solicitors being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Ms. N. made by the County Court on XX/XX/2007 Court reference: X2.
5. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X3 (Ref. X3) at care of EFG Solicitors, (Ref. X3), being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N. made by the County Court on xx/xx/ 2008 (Claim No. X3).
6. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X4 at Court being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mr. N made by the  County Court on XX/XX/2008 (Claim Number: X4).
7. RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate, other than a disposition by the proprietor of any registered charge registered before the entry of this restriction, is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or their conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X5 being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Mrs. N made by the  County Court on XX/XX/2008 (Court reference X5).

Under section C Charges Register:

This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

 

1. REGISTERED CHARGE dated xx/xx/ 2000.
2. Proprietor: Banks name and address.

End of register

[dx100uk]

those are all restriction k's. they do not need settling or paying if you sell.

can you put the names of the charge holder back in please (but not any of your pers details ofcourse name names don'y play secret squirrel. 

 

as for your all the other debts, are you blindly paying any other DCA's on very historic debts ? because you are now wrongly afraid of them?

 

list who you pay and what..you could very well be being cash cowed here. they really do have ZERO legal powers on ANY debt - no matter what it's type.

 

i was just reading your line about the 2 ones you are paying.. did the judge set these payments or were you conned by having a little chat with the fleecers rep before you went it each time?

[gtn]

Secret squirrel, yep that's me  

 

they have all been sold on to debt collectors and their in-house legal hounds chase them.

In no particular order the vultures are:

 

Cabot Financial

Northern Rock

CL Finance

Arrow Global (me)

Arrow Global (wife)

 

No other debt companies chasing for any other debts. We only have 2 credit cards now and we manage those as interest free cash flow. We have reduced them significantly and have not paid any interest on them for a while.

 

The 2 monthly payments were agreed in the court hearing with the debt collector and the judge. I put forward a budget and the repayment (very low) proposal.

 

Following up this feedback which is the key critical issue for me:

 

Quote

"those are all restriction k's. they do not need settling or paying if you sell."

 

I need to understand 100% why this is and how we can not settle or pay if we sell. When I speak to my conveyancer and they to the buyers conveyancer they will want these settling to proceed to exchange and completion. 

 

I have found a website by a legal firm that seem to specialize in helping Debt Collectors. Their blog talks about standard wording on Final Charging Orders and restrictions. It states:

 

"The practical effect of this type of restriction is that the purchaser (My Buyer)of the property must give notice of the transfer to the creditor (The Vulture) with the benefit of the charging order and then send to the Land Registry a certificate that this has been done. The problem with this loose form of wording is that the notice can be given after the transfer has taken place (but before registration of it at Land Registry) and this can be after the proceeds of sale have passed into the hands of the judgement debtor (Me and the better Half)."

 

On that basis I need to be 100% confident in my understanding of this process to tell my buyers conveyancer to give notice to the vultures after completion. Their fear will be they are buying a property with charges that they will then inherit and struggle to remove.

[dx100uk]

all that needs to happen is the home buyer sols simply writes to each restriction k owner after the sale saying my clients now own the property.

 

any sols already knows this process you don't have to do or say a thing, but beware just like scamming lying DCA's there are sols out there that will try and earn money by not doing what is required by law.

 

these debts you are still paying...

i will gather northern rock is an old loan? they still own it still?

 

can you add to you list 

 

the type of each debt

the original credit

when taken out.

outstanding balance

 

 

[gtn]

Ok so I just need to inform my conveyancer that the home buyer solicitor writes to each restriction k owner after the sale saying my clients now own the property after the completion date. Matter of fact as these are restriction K's as worded. The restriction creates a charge on the beneficial interest of the sole debtor (the net sales proceeds) not the estate/property.

 

This bit concerns me though:

No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant (the buyer) for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X care of X Solicitors.

 

This means they will write beforehand and forewarn the vultures of the sale as part of the conveyancing process. They have nothing to gain from delaying until after completion and may see it as not in their interests or morally wrong to delay. It seems that this is out of my control.

 

Has anyone successfully managed this process to an agreed and favourable settlement  or indeed non-payment to the vultures? I would be happy with a 60% settlement and even happier with a 0% settlement. 

[dx100uk]

you keep confusing yourself

you don't need to do or say anything with regard to the restrictions....

 

10 minutes ago, gtn said:

No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant (the buyer) for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to X care of X Solicitors.

 

after the sale...

[gtn]

Sorry, I haven't bought or sold a house in over 20 years, and never one with restrictions.

 

I would agree 100% if its after the sale then yes, I can literally pay nothing to these vultures. I have no moral issue with that, these people are making money from misery.

 

Why would it be after the sale though? The conveyancers will see these restrictions when they process the documents. Surely the buyers conveyancer will be looking to have these restrictions removed prior to or at completion and therefore write to the vultures in time to have these cleared before or at completion? I agree the restriction is standard wording and does not stipulate a 14-day before exchange/completion timeframe.

 

 

[dx100uk]

5 minutes ago, gtn said:

Why would it be after the sale though?

 

because that what the restriction states...

 

5 minutes ago, gtn said:

Surely the buyers conveyancer will be looking to have these restrictions removed prior to or at completion and therefore write to the vultures in time to have these cleared before or at completion?

not if they know how to deal with restrictions properly...

[gtn]

Ok that is interesting. On that basis these restrictions are a chocolate teapot. The debt collection solicitor website blog I quoted previously pretty much agrees as well. 

 

National Debt Line (NDL) and CAB both advised I would have to pay these  off as part of the conveyancing process and that the buyer wouldn't proceed unless that was the case. It seems intuitive that would be part of the conveyancing process. Here is the advice from NDL today:

 

Essentially you will need to approach them (the vultures) in order to obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale. You can do this yourself to begin with or alternatively delegate it to any solicitors handling a sale on your behalf. The buying party will normally want any such restrictions to be lifted before they'll proceed with a purchase.

 

The first step should be to approach the creditors themselves to establish what they would be prepared to settle for if not the full balance of their debt. You needn't necessarily announce your intention to sell at this point, just get a broad idea of whether any of them are open to settling for a reduced one-off lump sum.

 

That would make sense to me but it is in complete contrast to your advice and the aforementioned debt collection solicitor website. This bit made me angry: obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale  

 

I don't mind settling at 60% but I feel no moral obligation to settle at all. They did after all buy bad debt for <20p in the £1 and then try to make me and my family homeless twice. If I can get away without paying them anything I will do.

 

There are two lines of advice then in my situation then as follows:

1. I don't need to do anything as these restrictions cannot be enforced after the sale has completed
2. I will need to negotiate with the vultures as the conveyancing process will alert them and I need their 'blessing to proceed with the sale' and the buyer will want them clearing to proceed to buy

So if I do nothing at all the sale process will just proceed and I will have no problems whatsoever. I'm struggling to see that being the outcome in reality although I don't doubt it should be the case. 

 

I need to educate myself on this as I fear being passive will lead me to the NDL route and I'll end up paying 100% to these vultures. 

[dx100uk]

as with all debt charities they are financed by the banking and debt industry.

 

so your no.1. is the answer.

[gtn]

Stabbed in the back and screwed at the same time you mean, I would laugh but it's not funny is it. This is peoples lives and their families future they are messing with. 

 

I put your argument to NDL without mentioning it as advice from CAG. I also advised NDL the sole nature of the restrictions being against the interest in the property and not the property itself, which is jointly owned. This was their response:

 

You're likely to find in practice that the creditors will refuse to release the restriction unless they are satisfied that their debts will be settled to their satisfaction. Likewise buyers and their representatives tend to be reluctant to proceed until these restrictions are lifted. Otherwise the restrictions serve no benefit for the creditors. The Land Registry won't allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason.

We don't purport to offer legal advice on conveyancing issues here so you're best to approach the conveyancing solicitors directly if you wish to discuss the finer points. We can only advise on how this tends to affect such transactions in practice.

 

They then unilaterally ended the chat! I guess they didn't like my response then?

 

I have to say that NDL advice makes perfect sense to me:

1. why bother with restrictions if they are worthless in our circumstance; sole debt and joint ownership?
2. why would the buyer proceed to completion from a risk or moral perspective as they have nothing to gain
3. why would Land Registry allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason

This is a big call and literally makes £000's difference to what we can afford when we downsize. 

 

My gut feeling is once the vultures know we are proceeding with a sale they will hold out for 100%. They will find out if I attempt to negotiate or if a conveyancing solicitor informs them during the conveyancing process.

 

How do I manage the process so that:

1. The buyers and their conveyancer do not insist on the restrictions being cleared pre or upon completion
2. The vultures do not find out until after the completion date

For the time being it's as you advised do nothing. I do need to monitor this and plan ahead though.

[dx100uk]

41 minutes ago, gtn said:

You're likely to find in practice that the creditors will refuse to release the restriction unless they are satisfied that their debts will be settled to their satisfaction.

 

total BS the creditors have no say whatsoever and do not ever legally have to be informed of the sale until it's done, too late for the fleecers..

 

sorry but you got done over by the debt buying system, believed everything you were are are being told, and got had blind. 

they are all restriction k's.

 

now stop looking for ways to get mugged and move.

 

as for your other debts, you've yet to answer my questions, cause i bet as sure as eggs is eggs none of the debt buyer hold any enforceable paperwork, which is why the original creditors sold the debt on and wrote them off. cause if the did they'd have crushed you in court..buy they sold the debts for 10p=£1..funny that eh?.... cash cowed blind on every debt i bet.

[gtn]

The more I'm reading the better I understand this.

 

It seems that not all conveyancers understand it either, or as you implied will educate and help you understand it and would rather make sure you pay from the proceeds even though you don't have to. 

 

No other debts, they all dropped off the CCJ register as >6 years old, we didn't pay anything on these and ignored the bailiff threats. 5 of the CCJ's became the 5 restrictions I am looking to manage now. 

 

The most they have cost so far is a bit of worry/stress at the time and a few quid every month. Insignificant really. If the sale completes I will stop paying those two monthly amounts anyway. Once the sale completes it's a two finger salute to the vultures. 

 

Quote

now stop looking for ways to get mugged and move.

 

I'm a natural born worrier, I like to do what if's and plan a head. I can only do that if I know the facts. That works as I have got this advice from you and ignored the NDL and CAB advice.

 

The MSE link in the thread from your earlier post is a long one but its worth investing the time to do research. Yes I know I don't need to but I'll feel happier. Plus if I have knowledge maybe I can help someone myself.

 

They were all credit cards or personal unsecured loans. The legal process for the CCJ's was a stich up and we were had there, definitely. That's why we didn't pay them.

 

I just need to ensure my solicitor/conveyancer understands that I understand and I wont be mugged through ignorance on this.

 

Thanks for your help. I will post progress and keep CAG updated on this. 

 

also....Received a letter from a DCA today in connection with one of the restrictions. Apparently they need to contact me to discuss how we can work together on a repayment plan. Their team is going to review the case to determine if a home visit (veiled threat) will help me.

[dx100uk]

trying to scam you

any home visit ofcourse is not by a bailiff, those only come via a court after you lose a case

a DCA is NOT a BAILIFF

and have 

ZERO legal powers on ANY debt, no matter what it's type.

 

if they do appear film them on your phone, do NOT engage simply say leaver my property and never rtuen else i'll call police 101

 

dx

 

[gtn]

Understood.

 

Been there and got the t-shirt. 99.9999% certain no one will visit, but thanks for the advice.

 

Ok I found this article updated on the 23/04/2021 on the .gov.uk website today which states:

 

Jointly owned property

It is not possible to register a charging order as an ‘equitable charge’ on a jointly owned property unless all the owners / registered proprietors are judgment debtors. Where only one of the owners / registered proprietors is the judgment debtor, the order will be registered as a ‘restriction’.

 

A notice or restriction does not impose an obligation to make payment when the property is sold. 

 

That pretty much mirrors the advice from dx100uk and overturns the advice from NDL yesterday.

 

This matters greatly to me so I will continue to seek advice and feedback to further my understanding to the point where I am the expert. Please keep posting help and advice.

 

Ok here is another angle, what if the buyers are obtaining a mortgage to purchase the property, will that impact the process?

[dx100uk]

none...

[FTMDave]

Open

[gtn]

Ok an update on the conclusion of this thread. I hope this helps someone.

1. The advice I was given on this thread was in complete contrast to advice I was given by National Debt Line (NDL) and the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB).
2. The situation was significant in terms of value and impact to me and my family
3. Getting the right advice was therefore critical
4. The advice from the Consumer Action Group (CAG) was 100% correct

Following the advice from CAG has made a huge positive impact and it is shocking that organisations like NDL and CAB are giving misleading and biased advice that would have seriously disadvantaged me. 

 

The key to the successful outcome was getting the right conveyancer. Our first conveyancer took the NDL/CAB approach. We changed conveyancer, and it was exactly as the CAG advice said it would be.

 

RATM - Take the Power back! 

[AndyOrch]

Its a bit like Private Parking Charges or Fines as the media would wish for you to believe..If Conveyancers keep stating that Restrictions must be cleared first before any sale can complete...eventually everyone will accept and go along with it...as you dont know anything different nor are you allowed to challenge.

 

Well done.

 

Andy.

 

.

[gtn]

Ok my next step is to stop paying the 2 DCA's repayments that were put in place to fend off the orders for sale. Those vultures have had enough of our money. The CCJ's fell off the register years ago and the restriction k's were chocolate teapots.  It really is one big rip off scheme.

 

I'll need to reassure my wife who is fearful of door stepping and/or further recovery actions. Any advice on potential follow up from the DCA's and how to manage it greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

So these two payments you have going are for CCJs?