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gtn

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  1. Glad to hear you got it resolved. Good luck with the move.
  2. Hi Madge67 I'm glad my thread helped. The advice I got from the CAG forum was invaluable, hence I updated the thread once it had progressed post sale. I don't have the link to hand but a Google search should show it. Like most .gov.uk website content it takes a bit of time to find what you need and there isn't really a shortcut to that. My advice would be to stick with it and use the wording below in the search engine. Here is the wording, which from memory I copied directly from the .gov.uk website updated on the 23/04/2021: Jointly owned property It is not possible to register a charging order as an ‘equitable charge’ on a jointly owned property unless all the owners / registered proprietors are judgment debtors. Where only one of the owners / registered proprietors is the judgment debtor, the order will be registered as a ‘restriction’. A notice or restriction does not impose an obligation to make payment when the property is sold. In addition, in respect of the removal of restrictions the gov.uk website states: 3.7.1 Removal of restrictions Restrictions may be removed from the register by: · being cancelled by ourselves if it is clear that it is superfluous (paragraph 5 of Schedule 4 to the Land Registration Act 2002) We will cancel the restriction if we are satisfied that the restriction is no longer required. The application must be accompanied by evidence to show that this is the case. Practice guide 76 charging orders shows that where joint proprietors are registered, and the charging order is not made against all the joint proprietors it is only possible to enter a Form K restriction and not a notice (charging order) on the legal estate. In addition, practice guide 76 states: We will automatically cancel the Form K restriction once it has been complied with on registering a transfer of the registered estate for valuable consideration. We will assume that if the debt secured by the charging order has not been paid, your client’s interest will have come to an end with the postponement of the charged beneficial interest under section 29 of the Land Registration Act 2002. The restriction K wording will be on the Land Registry documents, which your solicitor will have or you can download these for £3 from HM Land Registry. The wording will or should be like all restriction K wording. Ultimately it means the conveyancer has to give notice but there's nothing in the restriction K wording that stipulates a timeframe or that the debt has to settled from the proceeds of the sale. If your conveyancer or your buyers conveyancer says different then they are wrong. Ask them to show where the restriction K states this. Here are my notes to my original conveyancer, but it's worth noting I had to change conveyancer to get this over the line. 1. There are Form K restrictions on the property title registered with HM Land Registry, and I note these are Form K restrictions not final charging orders or equitable charges. 2. I do not want there to be any contact with the beneficiaries of the restrictions until the notice required under the terms of the restrictions is issued. This notice can be issued on the day of completion and no notice period is required or timeframe stipulated or specified in relation to the notice and its issuance to comply with the restriction. 3. A Form K restriction is not listed in the charges register and is not a charge on the property. 4. As the property is jointly owned and the Form K restrictions are in a sole name, the restrictions are not final charging orders. 5. The restrictions are standard Form K restrictions and are not against the property title but against the sole interest in the proceeds of sale. The restrictions do not prevent the sale or transfer of the property. 6. A Form K restriction is only a means of notification of the property being sold, not an automatic right to payment or an obligation to pay from the sale proceeds. No date or timeframe is specified on the issuance of the notice to comply with the restriction. 7. The restrictions do not carry an obligation to pay any of the proceeds of sale. This is for me to negotiate settlement of. 8. The purchaser’s solicitor will require an undertaking from you as my conveyancer that the beneficiary of the restriction will be notified. The restrictions will be removed on completion of the purchase. It is important to note again that these are restrictions on the individuals proceeds of sale and not final charging orders against the property. 9. Under the terms of the restrictions on the title, HM Land Registry require a letter from you as our conveyancer confirming that the beneficiary of the restriction has been informed of the date of completion. This notice can be sent on the day we complete the sale as the restrictions do not make any stipulation on dates and time frames with regards the notice informing them. There is no 14-day notice stipulation, which is a common misunderstanding with regards title restrictions. 10. HM Land Registry will not ask to see the consent of the beneficiary of the restriction as they will receive a transfer notice from the purchasers once the sale is complete. The restrictions will no longer apply at that stage and will be removed by HM Land Registry as the property has transferred. 11. The purchaser’s conveyancer only needs to write (give notice) of transfer to the beneficiary of the restriction once their client has completed. At this point the restriction will be cancelled as the transfer is registered to the purchasers. 12. HM Land Registry has the notice of transfer and the notice that the beneficiary of the restrictions has been notified in accordance with the requirements of the restriction. 13. HM Land Registry will remove the restriction once the terms of the restriction, (written notice to the beneficiary as detailed in the restriction) have been met and the transfer is notified. I hope that helps. gtn
  3. Thanks dx100uk, your guidance and advice is greatly appreciated. Ok letters in envelopes ready to go 2nd class and I will get proof of postage. My wife and I had a discussion and have decided to continue paying the two we are already paying, at least for now. We will revisit in due course once we know what follow up action comes our way. Having reviewed the files/paperwork we are still getting regular letters from 4 of these and telephone calls from 1.
  4. I checked the CCJ's and some are showing the OC as the claimant and some are showing the DCA/new debt owner as the claimant. What difference does this make to me, and their ability to recover the debt and enforce the CCJ's? For example one credit card provider issued a default notice in 2008 and then the debt was bought by Arrow who issued a CCJ, obtained judgement, then a final charging order and attempted an order for sale. We agreed a monthly payment of £70 a month on a debt of £12K. we have paid £5K and there is still £7K to pay. The debt is owned by Arrow, they have a CCJ, a payment arrangement, we get letters from their legal reps and they had a restriction on our previous home. Where does that leave me once I send the new address letter and stop paying the monthly payment? Why would they just disappear and not pursue enforcement of the CCJ and possibly obtain a charging order? Apologies for the questions, just trying to understand it. Thanks in advance.
  5. Badtimes 123, totally agree with you and glad the results made you smile. I'm hoping that someone in a similar position as I was will be able to pickup this thread up and use my experience and apply it. Even if it's just the warning that NDL and CAB are really the smiling friend stabbing you in the back. It has been a long and sometimes dark journey, more than a decade and still ongoing. The current status would not have been unachievable without the advice offered in this forum. I'm not in a position to make a donation at this stage, but I soon will be and I certainly will do so. I revisited this thread so that I could update the forum and pass on the outcome to help someone else. Supporting the forum and its volunteers with a donation is a moral given. Letters being written and will be sent with a certificate of postage obtained.
  6. Noted. Interesting that CCJ's never expire even though they fall off the register/credit file record. These go back to 2007/2008, a life sentence in effect! So the procedure for the 2 debts that I am currently paying monthly owned by DCA's that have CCJ's > 6 years old is write to them with my new address quoting my debt ref. # and nothing else. Stop paying them the monthly payments and wait to see what happens. In one instance it was the OC (HSBC) who obtained the CCJ, in the other it was the DCA (Arrow) who obtained the CCJ. For the 3 other debts (HBOS, Arrow, CL Finance) where I have not written, communicated or paid anything since the CCJ's (all > 6 years old) and restrictions k's were obtained the procedure is: write to them with my new address quoting my debt ref. # and nothing else and wait to see what happens, OR Continue ignoring them as they are not pursuing them (let sleeping dogs lie rather than running from debt) I note we have had a small number of debt collection letters/calls.
  7. Thanks for clarifying and understood. Why would I give them my new address in writing? Seems to be counter intuitive and inviting them to door step me. I'm going to check who issued the CCJ's, as I cannot recall if it was the OC or the DCA.
  8. Hello, Yes that's correct. The first CCJ was late 2007 and the second was early 2008. Both CCJ's were removed from the register and our credit files in 2013/2014. I understand they stay on file for 6 years. Both CCJ's obtained a charging order in court and then went for an order for sale, which was unsuccessful. The debts were sold by the original creditors to different DCA's. The original debts were unsecured credit card balances. We started making monthly payments around 2016. Am I correct in my understanding from what I read so far: The CCJ's are no longer valid as they have expired There is no longer a CCJ to enforce The charging orders (restriction k's) are no longer applicable be cause we sold/moved home There is very little the DCA's can do except harass and threaten us I guess these are not time barred as we have been making payments Ta
  9. Ok my next step is to stop paying the 2 DCA's repayments that were put in place to fend off the orders for sale. Those vultures have had enough of our money. The CCJ's fell off the register years ago and the restriction k's were chocolate teapots. It really is one big rip off scheme. I'll need to reassure my wife who is fearful of door stepping and/or further recovery actions. Any advice on potential follow up from the DCA's and how to manage it greatly appreciated.
  10. Ok an update on the conclusion of this thread. I hope this helps someone. The advice I was given on this thread was in complete contrast to advice I was given by National Debt Line (NDL) and the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB). The situation was significant in terms of value and impact to me and my family Getting the right advice was therefore critical The advice from the Consumer Action Group (CAG) was 100% correct Following the advice from CAG has made a huge positive impact and it is shocking that organisations like NDL and CAB are giving misleading and biased advice that would have seriously disadvantaged me. The key to the successful outcome was getting the right conveyancer. Our first conveyancer took the NDL/CAB approach. We changed conveyancer, and it was exactly as the CAG advice said it would be. RATM - Take the Power back!
  11. Understood. Been there and got the t-shirt. 99.9999% certain no one will visit, but thanks for the advice. Ok I found this article updated on the 23/04/2021 on the .gov.uk website today which states: Jointly owned property It is not possible to register a charging order as an ‘equitable charge’ on a jointly owned property unless all the owners / registered proprietors are judgment debtors. Where only one of the owners / registered proprietors is the judgment debtor, the order will be registered as a ‘restriction’. A notice or restriction does not impose an obligation to make payment when the property is sold. That pretty much mirrors the advice from dx100uk and overturns the advice from NDL yesterday. This matters greatly to me so I will continue to seek advice and feedback to further my understanding to the point where I am the expert. Please keep posting help and advice. Ok here is another angle, what if the buyers are obtaining a mortgage to purchase the property, will that impact the process?
  12. The more I'm reading the better I understand this. It seems that not all conveyancers understand it either, or as you implied will educate and help you understand it and would rather make sure you pay from the proceeds even though you don't have to. No other debts, they all dropped off the CCJ register as >6 years old, we didn't pay anything on these and ignored the bailiff threats. 5 of the CCJ's became the 5 restrictions I am looking to manage now. The most they have cost so far is a bit of worry/stress at the time and a few quid every month. Insignificant really. If the sale completes I will stop paying those two monthly amounts anyway. Once the sale completes it's a two finger salute to the vultures. I'm a natural born worrier, I like to do what if's and plan a head. I can only do that if I know the facts. That works as I have got this advice from you and ignored the NDL and CAB advice. The MSE link in the thread from your earlier post is a long one but its worth investing the time to do research. Yes I know I don't need to but I'll feel happier. Plus if I have knowledge maybe I can help someone myself. They were all credit cards or personal unsecured loans. The legal process for the CCJ's was a stich up and we were had there, definitely. That's why we didn't pay them. I just need to ensure my solicitor/conveyancer understands that I understand and I wont be mugged through ignorance on this. Thanks for your help. I will post progress and keep CAG updated on this. also....Received a letter from a DCA today in connection with one of the restrictions. Apparently they need to contact me to discuss how we can work together on a repayment plan. Their team is going to review the case to determine if a home visit (veiled threat) will help me.
  13. Stabbed in the back and screwed at the same time you mean, I would laugh but it's not funny is it. This is peoples lives and their families future they are messing with. I put your argument to NDL without mentioning it as advice from CAG. I also advised NDL the sole nature of the restrictions being against the interest in the property and not the property itself, which is jointly owned. This was their response: You're likely to find in practice that the creditors will refuse to release the restriction unless they are satisfied that their debts will be settled to their satisfaction. Likewise buyers and their representatives tend to be reluctant to proceed until these restrictions are lifted. Otherwise the restrictions serve no benefit for the creditors. The Land Registry won't allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason. We don't purport to offer legal advice on conveyancing issues here so you're best to approach the conveyancing solicitors directly if you wish to discuss the finer points. We can only advise on how this tends to affect such transactions in practice. They then unilaterally ended the chat! I guess they didn't like my response then? I have to say that NDL advice makes perfect sense to me: why bother with restrictions if they are worthless in our circumstance; sole debt and joint ownership? why would the buyer proceed to completion from a risk or moral perspective as they have nothing to gain why would Land Registry allow the restrictions to be withdrawn unilaterally without good reason This is a big call and literally makes £000's difference to what we can afford when we downsize. My gut feeling is once the vultures know we are proceeding with a sale they will hold out for 100%. They will find out if I attempt to negotiate or if a conveyancing solicitor informs them during the conveyancing process. How do I manage the process so that: The buyers and their conveyancer do not insist on the restrictions being cleared pre or upon completion The vultures do not find out until after the completion date For the time being it's as you advised do nothing. I do need to monitor this and plan ahead though.
  14. Ok that is interesting. On that basis these restrictions are a chocolate teapot. The debt collection solicitor website blog I quoted previously pretty much agrees as well. National Debt Line (NDL) and CAB both advised I would have to pay these off as part of the conveyancing process and that the buyer wouldn't proceed unless that was the case. It seems intuitive that would be part of the conveyancing process. Here is the advice from NDL today: Essentially you will need to approach them (the vultures) in order to obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale. You can do this yourself to begin with or alternatively delegate it to any solicitors handling a sale on your behalf. The buying party will normally want any such restrictions to be lifted before they'll proceed with a purchase. The first step should be to approach the creditors themselves to establish what they would be prepared to settle for if not the full balance of their debt. You needn't necessarily announce your intention to sell at this point, just get a broad idea of whether any of them are open to settling for a reduced one-off lump sum. That would make sense to me but it is in complete contrast to your advice and the aforementioned debt collection solicitor website. This bit made me angry: obtain their blessing to proceed with the sale I don't mind settling at 60% but I feel no moral obligation to settle at all. They did after all buy bad debt for <20p in the £1 and then try to make me and my family homeless twice. If I can get away without paying them anything I will do. There are two lines of advice then in my situation then as follows: I don't need to do anything as these restrictions cannot be enforced after the sale has completed I will need to negotiate with the vultures as the conveyancing process will alert them and I need their 'blessing to proceed with the sale' and the buyer will want them clearing to proceed to buy So if I do nothing at all the sale process will just proceed and I will have no problems whatsoever. I'm struggling to see that being the outcome in reality although I don't doubt it should be the case. I need to educate myself on this as I fear being passive will lead me to the NDL route and I'll end up paying 100% to these vultures.
  15. Sorry, I haven't bought or sold a house in over 20 years, and never one with restrictions. I would agree 100% if its after the sale then yes, I can literally pay nothing to these vultures. I have no moral issue with that, these people are making money from misery. Why would it be after the sale though? The conveyancers will see these restrictions when they process the documents. Surely the buyers conveyancer will be looking to have these restrictions removed prior to or at completion and therefore write to the vultures in time to have these cleared before or at completion? I agree the restriction is standard wording and does not stipulate a 14-day before exchange/completion timeframe.
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