Santander withholding my money - suspected fraud - **SETTLED full amount+Court Fee+Compo**

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid that what you have posted above is not really what we had in mind.

We need a response to the points that they have made in their defence.

I've already suggested more than once that you produce a tabulated response to their positions contained in paragraph 14 of their defence. I'm not sure why you haven't done this or even referred to my suggestion.

A witness statement at the very basic will address the points made in the defence.

Please will you produce the tabulated response I've asked for.

I'm sorry to be insistent about this – but you started off taking advice from us and we would have helped you all the way and things could have been done very differently if you had stayed with us. Now we are trying to dig you out of the mess that you are in and you need to help us by producing the information that we need.

Separately, in the document which are proposed above, you are asking the court to make various orders that I'm afraid that you have used completely the wrong procedure for this and although as my site team colleague @Andyorch has pointed out, they have accepted your claim in that they have a response to it, I think when they understand that you are asking for orders from the court, the bank may well lodge further objections and ask for a strike out which is much more likely to be granted.
My sense is that because you are litigant in person, you will get a certain amount of licence but I expect that a court would eventually order that you prepare a new particulars of claim within a certain amount of time – failing which your claim will be struck out – and then in the event that you do produce the particulars of claim, the bank will then have a further time to produce a defence.

However, it is entirely possible that a court will take the view that as you have based your claim on completely the wrong procedure – a small claim rather than a part 8 claim, that your claim should be struck out completely.
You should understand that if you are eventually obliged to bring a part 8 claim, then you will not be protected by the small claims costs rules and that means that if you lose the case you could be liable to quite a lot of costs incurred by the bank.

Please will you post a tabulated response as I have asked

[bradybunch]

14.6    

1.1             On 17 July 2020, the Claimant told the Bank that a number of the credits were from people paying back money they owed him. The two largest credits were Faster Payment credits of £1,035 (received on 12 July 2020) and £3,120 (received on 14 July 2020). The Claimant initially told the Bank that the payment of £3,120 related to the sale by him to a friend of a car (a 2007 Astra) and that the payment of £1,035 related to the sale by him of a scooter.  He was asked about the V5 documents for the car he had sold and he informed the Bank that they were with the person who had purchased the car.      

 

1.1 The payments received are from friends and family for contribution for a family burial.

 

1.2 The payment into my account held at Santander was in relation to a car I sold to Mr John Johnson, and not a purchase. I sold the car on behalf of my friend My James for £3120.

 

14.7     In the circumstances, the Bank asked the Claimant for proof of entitlement to the funds.  On 18 July 2020, the Claimant provided some documents, said to evidence the purpose of four of the credits.  They included screenshots of payments confirming information about the payers which the Bank was already aware of and documents said to relate to the payment of £3,120 including a document described as a sales receipt and an email from the DVLA to a third party concerning a vehicle.  Nothing was provided in relation to the payment of £1,035.     I have provided bank statements from the car buyer. The car was sold for £3120, including the sales receipts. The £1035 was a loan I took from Mrs Anderson. I have also provided the screenshot of this payment to the bank

 

14.8    The documents provided in relation to the sum of £3,120 did not accord with the explanation previously given by the Claimant. The Claimant subsequently denied he had given the Bank the previous explanation.    I have provided car sales receipt and screenshot of payment from the buyer. The buyer has also provided a letter of confirmation. Santander asked for V5, which is an invalid request as the car has been sold and only the keeper can have a V5. I have provided the D11 from DVLA to Santander

 

SantanderTabulated.pdf

[BankFodder]

Thank you. That is helpful – although it's still a bit of a puzzle to me.

I think what we're doing here is trying to make it as easy for anyone – particularly a judge – to understand.

I think what would be a good idea now would be to extend the table to a third column. Then some of the information contained in column two would be to column three.

I have in mind that column to would answer the point they are making and then column three would deal with the exchange that you have already had with the bank on this point.

So for instance, column three would be something like "this was brought to the attention of the defendant on X X X date and they were provided copies of X X X receipt (appendix 1), ZZZ statement (appendix 2) and www receipt (appendix 3) – appendices attached to this witness statement.

 

I think it's important that your exchanges with the bank are contain a separate column so that attention is very clearly drawn to the fact that you have attempted to address the bank's concerns and that you are providing a copy of the documentation which was supplied to the bank to the court as well for their benefit.

I notice it in one cell the bank suggests that they expressed a concern to you and received no response. Yet in the adjoining cell you say that you did. You should particularly refer to this in cell three explaining how you did address the concerns and the document you supplied to support your response to them – which is now included in an appendix.

It's important that you produce a witness statement that is clear, compelling and which a court can understand at a glance – with appendices fully referenced.

Also, have you sent the bank an SAR? You should do this. There is possibility that they may decline to satisfy the SAR on the basis that this is some kind of protected information under CIFAS – but you may as well try.

Also, have you checked your CIFAS record?

Also, I believe that there is no crime reference number. I'm quite certain that they have not reported this to the police – they never do. However I consider that they have a duty to do so. I think it's extremely unfair that they take this Draconian action against you on the basis of their own investigation – which of course will earn on the side of caution – and yet not give you a chance to open yourself up to a proper investigation.
I think we will exploit their failure to report this is a crime in the documents which you will have to prepare. Although the bank will say that it is not their policy, I think that a judge will not be happy to find that they have taken this action against you, deprive you of your own money – and yet they are not prepared to put the matter into the hands of the police.
It seems to me that if they think that the money is the proceeds of crime then not only do they have a duty to report it to the police, but also they have a duty to hand the money over to the police so that it is held by them pending the outcome of an investigation.
 

[bradybunch]

Thanks for your response BankFodder.

 

Yes, I requested for and obtained an SAR and theres no CIFAS entry on my credit file. 

in the SAR theres no mention of a police report or crime number.

I will extend the columns and resend shortly. MCOL gave me until 22nd Feb to send my response back.

 

thanks once again for your support.

 

[BankFodder]

I think that to check if there is a CIFAS marker against you, you have to contact CIFAS directly. I'm not sure that this information is contained in your credit file.

You won't need to send this witness statement back on 22 February. That will come later. As I recollect, you have simply been asked if you want to proceed with the case.

You started this using moneyclaim online. How much did you pay by way of a claim fee? Because it's not really clear what sum of money you are claiming

 

Incidentally, in respect of the draft witness statement which you posted earlier, I'm afraid that it is not at all the kind of thing that you should be sending and I suggest that you bin it. In particular, you could do a little less of the praying. I don't think that things are quite that serious – yet.

[bradybunch]

I paid about £185. I am claiming £4900 

[bradybunch]

27 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Incidentally, in respect of the draft witness statement which you posted earlier, I'm afraid that it is not at all the kind of thing that you should be sending and I suggest that you bin it. In particular, you could do a little less of the praying. I don't think that things are quite that serious – yet.

could you suggest a better format for the witness statement please or point me towards where i could get a template/sample?

thanks

BB

[BankFodder]

I think this format of the witness statement will be fine. It is a bit unconventional in its presentation but it will be clear and instantly understandable – and judges appreciate that.

Also, even though it is an unconventional approach, because you are litigant in person you have a great deal of licence and your break away from the traditional verbose style will be appreciated not only by the judge but also by the bank.

However let's complete it first and then we will add some other bits and pieces. But I would certainly like @Andyorch to give his comments

[AndyOrch]

Bear in mind that on completion and submitting of your DQ the court will then issue a Notice of Allocation (N157)...this will contain the courts directions for the next part of the process.....IE Witness statement and evidence and simultaneous exchange date. It will also confirm the hearing date and the date you must pay your hearing fee.

 

Also important is that each party must serve a copy of their DQ on each other...you need to check on their DQ if they intend to make any applications and for what...?

 

Until you receive the defendants statement ....points may change so don't get too bogged  down in responding to their initial defence contents just yet....use it as a structure...but you have a way off yet before they will serve their statement on you.

 

Witness statements must conform to a structure and layout as provided by the CPR (Civil Procedure Rules) I'm more in favour of the traditional layout rather than column's...but there is no fast rule which you opt for....its just easier to draft and respond to the points made by the other party.

 

If you refer to a document you wish to rely on then end that paragraph with (see attached exhibit xxxx) If you don't refer to it or disclose it....you cant rely on it.

 

Example ...this is a defendants statement ...but will give you an idea.

 

WITNESS STATEMENT OF Baycloves.pdf

 

 

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

[bradybunch]

 

Hi Andy,

 

I am a little confused now.

I thought the DQ (Defence Questionnaire) is what they sent with the paragraphs indicating their applications. they have asked the court to strike out the claim.

 

The court has given me till 22/02 to send back the N180, and I was hoping to send the exhibits and my own statements alongside. 

 

Do i only need to send back the N180 at this stage and wait for further instructions from the court before sending the exhibits and statements?

 

thanks

BB

[AndyOrch]

Each party must submit their own Directions Questionnaire as directed by the court by date. Yes you file and serve a copy on the defendant by the date stated....you don't attach anything.

 

Dates for submitting your statement/evidence will be confirmed in the N157 Notice of Allocation....as I have stated above.

 

 

When you receive a copy of the defendants DQ.....scan /redact and post here.

 

 

.

 

[BankFodder]

To refer to @Andyorch comment about favouring a more conventional approach, I think that a mixture of the two probably works best. Once again, because you are a litigant in person you have a lot of licence.

Expressing your rebuttals and explanations of their points is much clearer in a tabulated format. We used exactly this tabulated format in a case against Npower about three or four years ago and the judge congratulated the claimant on the way that the arguments have been presented in this tabulated form.

It seems to me that generally speaking the more conventional approach can be used for most of it but when it comes to the rebuttal of their paragraph 14, then it needs to be clear as possible and that is done by the tabulated form.
You won't come under any criticism for presenting it that way. Once again, anything that makes it shorter and easier to understand is appreciated by the judge.

Certainly in the DQ you will need to make some kind of response to their request to strike out the claim. However I don't think it needs to be by means of a witness statement at this point.

Please could you post up the way in which they have asked the court to strike out. If you could possibly type the actual words then we can come up with a suitable response.

I think the judge will be loath to strike out – they normally do – especially against a litigant in person but this is not the time to send a lengthy rebuttal.

At the end of the day, it's absolutely correct that your claim doesn't show any cause of action or any valid request from the court – so don't be surprised if you are struck out but we will do our best to persuade the court to give you a chance.
It might be an opportunity to to say to the judge that you are a litigant in person and that you do have a valid case although you may be haven't expressed as well as you might but that if the judge is minded to strike out the case then you would respectfully ask that you be given 14 days to file a better particulars of claim and in which case the defendant can file a further defence and then the case can go from there. I think that we would say that it would be in the interests of justice to take this approach.

This seems to me the sort of arrangement that a judge would be happy to go along with – and this would then give you an opportunity to file a new/amended particulars of claim without having to seek permission and without having to pay a further fee.

Please post up the text of their request to strike out

[bradybunch]

1           Accordingly, the Bank invites the court, of its own motion, to strike out the particulars of claim under CPR 3.3 and/or CPR 3.4 on the basis that the Claimant has failed to comply with a rule and practice direction and/or because the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing the Claim.

[AndyOrch]

Requests in a defence are irrelevant.....must be made using an application n244.

 

DQs have been issued so the court have disregarded.

 

Applications for orders under rule 3.4(2)

5.1 Attention is drawn to Part 23 (General Rules about Applications) and to Practice Direction 23A. The practice direction requires all applications to be made as soon as possible and before allocation if possible.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part03/pd_part03a

 

[BankFodder]

I had gathered that the strikeout request had been made in the banks DQ…?

[AndyOrch]

DQs have not been submitted yet...its within the defendants defence point 3. 

 

 

.

[BankFodder]

Okay. I misunderstood. I thought that they had already submitted their DQ and sent a copy to our claimant which included a request for strikeout.

 

[bradybunch]

5 hours ago, Andyorch said:

DQs have not been submitted yet...its within the defendants defence.

OK. So i just have to submit the 2 page N180 for now (to court and defendant) and wait?

 

Thanks

BB

[AndyOrch]

Guidance.....

 

 

[bradybunch]

On 15/02/2021 at 21:05, Andyorch said:

Guidance.....

 

 

Thanks Andyorch. I have filled out the form. I have three witnesses who have indicated willingness to write to the court as witnesses. should I just keep this simple and list 1 witness?

 

BB

[AndyOrch]

1 witness is yourself.....whether you wish to call a further 3 (making it 4) is your choice and if what they have to offer in support of your defence is worthwhile ?

[bradybunch]

thanks. I will send to all concerned asap. 

so its just the N180 this time around. no need to add anything extra?

[AndyOrch]

No...as I've already stated.....you don't add anything to a DQ..its simply to allocate the claim to a track and move it to your local county court.

 

Have a read of the following re adding witnesses.

 

https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/PDFForms/EX342.pdf

[bradybunch]

Thanks Andyorch. 

 

Things have moved pretty quick. I opted for mediation and have sent my number to the court so waiting for a date.  

[BankFodder]

Maybe you would like to make a note here – bullet pointed fashion – of the points that you think you are going to make during the mediation.

It will help everybody to understand and possibly to offer you advice on your proposed arguments