Managing Agent leasehold Property 4th Court Claim same issue.

[andydd]

Having seen them the problem appears to be not really relatively simple landlord and tenant/service charge issues but the confusing nature of the relationship between tenants/landlord/managing agent that make it very hard to understand.

 

As for additional evidence, I believe in small claims this can just be handed into court (and given to other side), right upto the deadline (which is a few days before the case), this is different to fast/multi track where there are strict rules on evidence/disclosure, etc. If you want to make a change to your original particulars of claim then you can do this using N244 form (there are CPR rules on this which say you should send in form outlining changes), there may well be a hearing to discuss if the changes are allowed and you may have to cover other sides costs (Ive done this twice now).

 

Incidently in my dispute with freeholder (regarding damages as he has breached repairing lease) has been settled by mediation, I got an amount Im happy with, he on the other hand was totally clueless - he mantion an old irrelavnt LVT and was unaware that his main claim had been struck out months ago..in May !).

 

Andy

[BlurredFX]

Hearing tomorrow!!! Fingers crossed guys.

 

I am going to the Court an hour before the hearing to hopefully have a word with the duty brief, see what they have to say before I go in. I am confident of my case, but I have a had a long time to get used to a complex situation, which is essentially:

 

There was an absent landlord, so a "friendly society" (the Claimant) was set up to cover gardening costs and things like that, and someone has elevated this company to Landlord status with no Authority from the Landlord! To add insult to injury, the requests, now claiming to be due under the lease (they just used to be random invoices) are not even complicit with the 10pt rule on the summary of rights, amongst many other glaring mistakes!?!?!?! It's bloomin fraud I'm sure!

I have written myself a few paragraphs up to read if the Judge asks my to clarify my application or whatever they may decide - I gave up trying to second guess Judges a while ago, but i figure having a few rehearsed sentences may help as obviously there will be questions.

 

I have spoken to the court today, and the claimant has not made any submissions since notice of the hearing was given in October.

 

Any thoughts??

 

I've left it to the last minute again really, but there's always something else in the way!!

 

Blurred:)

[BlurredFX]

Sorry - my application is for a strike out or failing that set-aside! Strike out due to it being a complete abuse of process, having brought the case once before and withdrawn it, then starting ti again under a new case number.

 

I am anticipating questions off the DJ in order that s/he can understand what's gone on so that they can direct it properly - if you ask me, it should be open and shut!!! But that's why I am not a Judge.

 

Sorry if this wasn't clear!

[citizenB]

I will flag your thread so that those on the site team who are subscribed, will be alerted.

 

I wish you well in court tomorrow - it sounds as though you have things covered

[BlurredFX]

Thanks CB,

 

I went through a couple of documents with andydd as you really needed to see all the personal details to make any sense of them. But I did not submit them in the end - they related to much to the original case.

 

Hopefully the Judge will simply look at the clear abuse of process and strike it out, knowing that the Claimant can restore his original case - which I am OK with (if I have to).

 

My fear is that the DJ will start looking too much into the previous case, or worse, I start waffling on, diverting attention from what I want!

[AndyOrch]

Best of luck for today FX.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[DonkeyB]

Use that sneaky old trick – tell the truth. Good luck.

[BlurredFX]

Thanks guys.

 

Had the hearing, other side was a no-show. The DJ was going with my request to have the claim struck out - then I asked him if that meant he would order them to give me my money back.

 

He looked at it again, and said that he would have to set it aside, and that I would have to lodge a Defence and Counter Claim within 28 days. I think he said that as I had not asked for a counterclaim within my application, he could not deal wit that today?? Now I have written that down, it makes more sense to me. Does it make sense to anyone else? I don't think he was clear that Judgement had been entered until I pointed it out, and taht is why is was t aside and not struck out. Does that make sense?

 

There was some confusion as to actually what my application covered, as there was an overlap in the Claimants two cases,. I am not sure if you recall, but this is two cases, one of which the Claimant withdrew before starting the other 12 months alter. It turns out he wrote tot he Court when he withdrew that claim saying I had paid it!!! Obviously, I had done nothing of the sort!!

 

When I actually got down to saying that this company is no connection the the Landlord he seemed a bit taken aback - and I went with him, agreeing that these things are normally dealt with professionally, but that was the crux of my case here. He got it in the end. I think that is the problem - the other side have behaved appalingly, defying all types of logic, and with no apparent respect for the law.

 

Anyway, I think we have made a step in the right direction, and I have 4 weeks to get it boxed off, hopefully with you gys for support and help. Marathon case this one!

 

Many thanks for your help everyone, without the CAG, I'd be completely lost.

 

So where do we go from here? Does anyone have any ideas?

 

Blurred:)

[BlurredFX]

His (the DJ's) face was a picture when I mentioned Dean v Longbridge though and I would be going for costs due their vexatious nature!! Not even sure if it was the right thing to say, but he paused for a moment, beffore saying go for it!

[citizenB]

Sounds like you had a pretty decent judge on the day.

 

So has a new date been set for another hearing ?

[DonkeyB]

Well done. Did he give you four weeks to enter a defence? That’s good if so.

[BlurredFX]

Sounds like you had a pretty decent judge on the day.

 

So has a new date been set for another hearing ?

 

I think I have to submit a defence and counter claim first. Just hoping someone will confirm.

[BlurredFX]

Sorry CB,

 

I think we crossed messages here! Yes, he gave me four weeks to enter a counter claim and defence.

 

This allows me to tell the whole sorry story from the beginning, and shows the other side's poor conduct up as well, I suppose. Or would my defence simply be that they have failed to justify any of their claim??

 

At the end of the hearing I did ask the DJ how best to proceed, and that's when he spelled it out a bit more - with the obvious caveats he is a Judge, not a legal advisor.

 

I am struggling to recall what he said about their not turning up - I think he said that unless they come up with a good reason for not attending the hearing or responding to my application, then I would be able to enter a defence and counter claim. I suppose if someone got held up due to an accident or something serious that can be documented, it would have to be considered - after all, I missed it the first time due to being on life support!

 

Had I put in my application that I wanted to enter a counterclaim today, it would have been allowed.

 

Mind you, it was in my draft order...??? I don't know. It was a lot more confusing when there was two cases to consider.

 

When the DJ asked for clarification, I told him that originally i THOUGHT that the company was set up as a "friendly society" by the neighbours tolook after the gardening and window cleaning, and from that it had grown to take this type of action which it was not allowed to. The Judge double checked this with me, and I made it clear that my whole case was centered on the fact they have no authority to collect... and if they do, their demands are not complicit (Rights etc., in a size 10 font).

 

My brain hurts lol

 

FX:)

[DonkeyB]

I would suggest you need three elements.

 

1. A clear, concise rebuttal of their claim as your actual defence.

 

2. A witness statement to support your defence, which tels your side of the story and adds all the context.

 

3. For the day of any hearing, a clear skeleton argument that outlines the legal points.

 

You also need to define clearly the basis and reasoning for your counterclaim, and prepare the wording of your claim, as well as your supporting law/caselaw etc.

 

Plenty to do!

[AndyOrch]

FX what happen to your Costs in this claim?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BlurredFX]

FX what happen to your Costs in this claim?

I asked the DJ for costs, but he was having none of it, or didn't seem to be entertaining the idea, I asked for costs as the Claimant was acting in a vexatious manner, as per Longbridge Investments v Dean. (was pointed out earlier), and he said that if I wanted to go that route then I would definitely have to go the Defence and Counter-claim route.

 

I did do a bit of amateur dramatics when he said that I would have to go that route,put my head in my hands, advised I was a LiP and a sick man (i had my machine with me and tubes hanging out), but I think he ran out of sympathy at that point. Or more to the point he pointed out that he really couldn't go granting such, when I had not made it clear in my application, and that the Claimant was not there to "defend" themselves!

 

I think on reflection, that's what was said. It would make sense to me at least. It does get overwhelming, and I genuinely am far from my sharpest. Does that make sense to anyone else?

 

FX

[BlurredFX]

I think it is worth mentioning that the hearing was scheduled for 1 hour as opposed to 20 mins that everyone else seem to have. We were done in twenty minutes though.

[BlurredFX]

Do posts sometimes get delayed going on the Forums? I posted a reply to CB earlier, talking about a "timeline" and it doesn't appear to be here?? :s

[AndyOrch]

You costs were submitted as a result of the first claim being struck out.....you issued a Bill of Costs to the claimant.Was there never a response? You dont claim your costs as a counter claim if that is what you are referring to as " they owe me money" and the DJ switched his decision from struck out to set a side and invited you to submit a further defence and CC.

[citizenB]

Do posts sometimes get delayed going on the Forums? I posted a reply to CB earlier, talking about a "timeline" and it doesn't appear to be here?? :s

 

Gremlins !!

[BlurredFX]

You costs were submitted as a result of the first claim being struck out.....you issued a Bill of Costs to the claimant.Was there never a response? You dont claim your costs as a counter claim if that is what you are referring to as " they owe me money" and the DJ switched his decision from struck out to set a side and invited you to submit a further defence and CC.

 

That sounds about right Andyorch.

 

The DJ spotted something I had not fully thought about, especially in light of the knowledege he passed on to me at the hearing. My own poor research I suppose, but the two claims overlapped in time. The First Claim from 2006-09 and the Second Claim was 2006 - 2011.

 

The Judge had been through the First Case court paperwork, and the Claimant wrote to the Court saying that I had paid, and therefore the case was withdrawn!!! This is not the case. I never paid them a penny, they withdrew the case as they didn't have one. I did not know this little piece of info - I was told they had withdrawn the case and that was that. I never sought clarity in writing. My bad. But it was not struck put.

 

In light of the above, he was looking to strike out the 2006-2009 overlap between the two cases as I had already paid. Then I said that was not my case.

 

I said my case is that they were never entitled to anything, and withdrew the First Case before Judgement could be given.

 

On that basis, he was going to strike the case out.Then I started on about costs, and I don't think he realised Judgement had been entered??And I would be wanting the money back that they took off me (thousands) But then he realised?? Something like that anyway. He was gonna strike it out until he realised I would be wanting my money back and would also be asking for £18 per hour costs on the grounds that the action was vexacious. Somehere amongst that lot, he did say I should submit Defence and CC. He went on to clarify that I knew what "serve on" and "file with" had different meanings?!?!

 

Anyway, is anyone any closer to decyphering my poor (prescription drug addled) memory?? I am s

[BlurredFX]

Gremlins !!

 

I think they follow me CB!

 

Thank you all.

[BlurredFX]

duplicate

Edited January 16, 2013 by BlurredFX
duplicate

[BlurredFX]

For clarity: First claim was discontinued - they said to the Court I had paid it.

 

Second Claim was rushed in and through while I was on life support, went to Northants Bulk Centre, and they then got the funds of my mortgage company. I am not sure of they actually applied for 146 possession, but I would assume the mortgage company just paid it at the first request. I should check these details.

 

Sorry for the numerous posts. I did check first, honest!!!

 

FX

[BlurredFX]

Hello again

 

I've had the notification through that the CCJ has been set-aside and 28 (now down to 14) days to submit my counterclaim and defence. I could wave the sick card if I need an extension I suppose as I have been il again, but I really want this drawn to a proper conclusion ASAP.

 

So now it comes to actually drawing up the Defence and Counterclaim.

 

What format should these take? Is it like before with a Statement of Case and a Witness Statement??

 

Blurred:)