Sickness or bereavement leave?

[king12345]

Hi everyone.

I found myself in a difficult position.

 

For the past couple of months I've been acting in a managerial position because our boss broke her leg.

 

A couple of weeks ago a member of staff called me to say that her father in law had passed away and she wasn't in the right frame of mind to come to work and organise all the school run and babysitting while her husband went to Scotland to deal with the death.

I said not to worry and i would have sorted it out.

She took 3 days off in total.

I put it down on the system as bereavement leave paid because the policy says that it is at manager discretion and when my grandmother died i got a week paid to go abroad.

 

Payday came and this girl has not been paid for the 3 days.

I queried with ho and they said: "we don't pay for bereavement leave".

I pointed out the policy wording and they insisted that the policy is only a guidance.

 

giving the bad news to this colleague,

she pointed out that she didn't ask for bereavement leave, but sickness.

In fact, she did say on the phone to me:

"I'm too emotional at the moment and I'm not in the right frame of mind to come to work".

 

Now, in normal circumstances i would be advising her as a union activist (note, not a rep anymore),

but being personally involved i don't know if I'm going in the right direction.

 

I contacted ho and told them that it was my mistake to put down bereavement leave instead of sickness,

but of course they think I'm just trying to find a solution so she can get paid,

having been the instigator of many wars during the years in favour of workers rights.

 

They have said that she need to put a grievance against me and then they'll follow the procedure.

In other words they won't pay her in the end.

 

I discussed this with her (ho knows that i would because I told them) and she said she wants to sue them if they don't pay up.

 

She asked me if she can take them to county court instead of employment tribunal because she's not in the union and hasn't got money for a solicitor.

 

What's your view?

Thanks

[unclebulgaria67]

It sounds like head office are dealing with you this way because you are not a manager and are just 'acting as manager'.

 

I have been in this position within a company and basically your name is not on a list to authorise things like paid bereavement.

 

Once you become a manager, not just acting, you are treated totally differently because you get sign off authority. When you make a decision, that is it and you would not be overidden.

 

Suggest you speak to another manager about this or if they are not available your manager who is off work.

 

If the companies policy is discretionary, that is up to a manager with sign off authority to agree. You don't have this authority as an 'acting manager'.

[Sidewinder]

Can't really add to what UB has already posted

 

I hate any policy which includes the word 'discretionary' as it will inevitably be in favour of some whilst extremely unpopular with others. Bereavement is just such a case - some will be told to take whatever time is needed whilst others will be told to take unpaid time off at best or denied leave altogether at worst. There should be a firm policy to determine in what circumstances - nature of relationship, time allowed etc - so that it avoids such circumstances.

 

The lady in question would almost certainly have been permitted time off to deal with a family emergency, but again here there is no entitlement to this being paid. I would agree therefore that if company sick pay is an automatic entitlement then this would have been the more appropriate option - she was not in a sufficient mental state to attend work

 

Completely agree that you should speak to another manager about this - ideally one with sufficient authority to overrule Payroll, otherwise there will have to be the rigmarole of a grievance, threats of an unlawful deduction or breach of contract and an inevitable payment for the three days anyway. Fact is she said she was reporting sick and you made a genuine mistake. There shouldn't really be a need for an argument!

[mariner51]

Was she even entitled to 3 days Co sick pay?

I believe Govt Stat Sick Pay may not be payable for 1sr 3 days of Sick Leave.

What is your injured Manager's opinion?

[king12345]

Thanks for all the replies.

As acting manager they have given me full authority , that was one of the basis i agreed to help them.

Today i told them to find another muppet by Friday.

Sickness is fully paid, so she should be paid.

I spoke to my manager who broke a leg and she said: "that's typical of ho".

Apparently they override managers' decisions all the time, especially with regards to saving money.

In this case i made a mistake thinking that bereavement would be paid (they paid mine) and didn't even consider putting down sickness also because it would have triggered a warning for other sick leave she had taken.

She's very angry and wants to start a full blast nuclear war.

I suggested to wait for ho to answer to my second email in which i state again that it was my mistake, even though i know they will not bulge.

She wants to recover the money, is county court an option or is it got to be ET?

BTW, i don't want to be a manager, i was offered the position several times when i was young but i cannot become a yes man.

[unclebulgaria67]

County court not an option because bereavement pay is discretionary. ET not an option yet.

 

She needs to raise a grievance per companies policy and it will be dealt with.

 

To be honest, if you had full authority to authorise this discretionary pay, you should also raise a grievance as well, because you will have a note on your employment file questioning you abusing your true level of authority while acting as manager. If you don't and you ever think about a promotion opportunity, you will question whether this instance has gone against you.

 

This issue needs resolving for both you and the lady concerned.

 

It would save you and the company a lot of time if you got another manager on your side to resolve this situation. The company are stupid to deny 3 days pay, when the cost of dealing with 2 grievances is likely to exceed the pay.

[unclebulgaria67]

And remember King, even if you never wanted to apply for promotion, this situation might affect how your colleagues perceive you in your current role. It only takes one person to mention it to someone that King let down a colleague by promising something he could not deliver. Then this spreads to other colleagues and people stop trusting you.

 

You will therefore wish to take this very seriously. Either managers have responsibility to authorise discretionary pay or they don't. If they don't then the companies policy should simply state that referral to head office is required and local managers do not have authority.

[king12345]

Thanks uncle.

There's nothing in writing giving me full authority but when I was asked by the area manager he said so.

My colleagues know that i always try to help them, so they know this is coming from ho, no doubt about it.

I will submit a grievance if they don't bulge.

At the moment there's a bit of panic because they don't have another manager available and I'm going back to my normal duties on Friday.

I got a call from a manager from a site in east London who has been asked to look after 2 sites at opposite ends of London.

Of course this is impossible, but just shows how desperate they are.

He was trying to convince me that it's not my problem and i should carry on without worrying about my colleagues.

He probably forgot I'm not a manager!

As far as I'm concerned they can get the area manager from his golf club to deal with the everyday rubbish at our site.

[unclebulgaria67]

Raise a grievance without delay that they have undermined you as acting manager for the site and as a result, you are standing down as acting manager, because head office have made it impossible to continue. Provide exact details of what happened and the authority stated in the company policies.

 

What you have said suggests that they will just try to ignore you, unless you make it official with a grievance.

[ericsbrother]

agree with UB, word it carefully so it is all about the countermanding of your instructions and authority in your capacity as manager rather than about the compassionate leave issue itself

[king12345]

Thanks, Writing it now.

Our manager (the one with broken leg and off sick) said that they override managers' decisions all the time but nobody ever said anything.

Unfortunately given the many details i can't publish the grievance here, but i get the union have a look before I submit.

Also writing a grievance for the girl who didn't get paid.

Fortunately a union rep at our site worked in the union legal dpt for a while and can get one of his mates have a look.

Usually they don't get involved with basic disputes.

[king12345]

Hi guys, update:

We went for the grievance hearing for my colleague and, despite me being there and telling them that i misunderstood what was said and i should have put her down as sick, they decided that their decision stands.

We also provided a telephone recording of our conversation in which she clearly stated that she was too upset and not in the right frame of mind to come to work, but they insisted that because her father in law had passed away, this should be classed as bereavement leave.

So they're not paying her.

She wants to take them to court, but of course i said that she needs to go for an appeal first.

We both know that it will be unsuccessful.

My question is: When the appeal fails, can she bring a county court case or she must go to employment tribunal?

 

On a separate note, my grievance to hr for overriding my decision to pay her is due next Tuesday, in the mean time we have no manager on site and another manager from east London is apparently in charge temporarily but we haven't seen him.

Big mess for them.

I said that if they solve her grievance i might reconsider acting as a manager in the mean time our one is off sick, but they didn't bulge.

Suits them, everyone is doing whatever they want and jobs are piling up.

[ericsbrother]

take them to court for what? following their procedures. No chance. they have allowed her leave of absence and that is unpaid. cant change that.

What I see will be the next problem is what to do if they then ignore your grievance about countermanding your instructions/authority. Can you refuse to do any of the job of the manager or does your role currenlty include some of the same work or have a term that states and any other work as necessary etc. It seems to me that your manager who is off sick needs to help support you in this big time or it will fail. Problem is do they have the mettle to do this knowing that they appear to have accepted the undermining of his authority before without much fuss.

[king12345]

take them to court for what? following their procedures. No chance. they have allowed her leave of absence and that is unpaid. cant change that.

What I see will be the next problem is what to do if they then ignore your grievance about countermanding your instructions/authority. Can you refuse to do any of the job of the manager or does your role currenlty include some of the same work or have a term that states and any other work as necessary etc. It seems to me that your manager who is off sick needs to help support you in this big time or it will fail. Problem is do they have the mettle to do this knowing that they appear to have accepted the undermining of his authority before without much fuss.

 

She wants to take them to court because she called sick which is paid by contract and i made the mistake of putting down bereavement leave paid which they then changed to unpaid.

So she's out of pocket by about £300.

 

I have already gone back to my contractual duties and I'm not acting as manager anymore following this fiasco.

They begged me to continue until my manager comes back from sickness but as they undermined the authority they had given me in writing when they asked me to substitute our manager, i gave them a few days notice and gone back to my post.

That authority was a key point for me to accept to help them and they knew that, in fact at the time i didn't accept a good honourable word and i asked them to put it in writing which they did.

I have no wish to become a manager, now or ever, I'm too old for the corrupt politics to accept them and be a yes man.

[ericsbrother]

I think any attempy at progressing this through a court or tribunal will end in just more grief. TBH she wasnt sick and was using the time to organise things rather than being abed, you have made this clear. Compassionate leave would be normal, many employers would allow paid leave for this but some dont, hence basically making it leave of absence, which is unpaid even where compassionate leave is paid.

 

You cant undo what is done as far as the so called misnomer, the same would apply for hospital or dental appointments, they arent periods of sickness either and again most employers allow you to tootle off to them and say nothing. Some employers allow you the time off to give blood and even encourage their staff to do so but not all are like this so we have to deal with what we have.

 

Your admission of a clerical error will cut no ice as it is clear that the person wasnt sick as is understood by most so your best bet is to push the point that although after the event it transpired that it should be considered as a compassionate leave the error was all yours and that it wouldnt have happened nor be questioned if the proper manager was making the decisions and that the company have given you a set of tasks and responsibilities they havent trained to to doa dn then countermanded your decisiosn and instructions afterwards.

 

Now there is case precedent for suing an employer for promoton people beyond their abilities so perhpas that is the way forward. 3 days ay for someone calling sick or a long, expensive drawn out battle over competence of an overpromoted person?

Edited November 25, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[king12345]

I think any attempy at progressing this through a court or tribunal will end in just more grief. TBH she wasnt sick and was using the time to organise things rather than being abed, you have made this clear. Compassionate leave would be normal, many employers would allow paid leave for this but some dont, hence basically making it leave of absence, which is unpaid even where compassionate leave is paid.

 

You cant undo what is done as far as the so called misnomer, the same would apply for hospital or dental appointments, they arent periods of sickness either and again most employers allow you to tootle off to them and say nothing. Some employers allow you the time off to give blood and even encourage their staff to do so but not all are like this so we have to deal with what we have.

 

Your admission of a clerical error will cut no ice as it is clear that the person wasnt sick as is understood by most so your best bet is to push the point that although after the event it transpired that it should be considered as a compassionate leave the error was all yours and that it wouldnt have happened nor be questioned if the proper manager was making the decisions and that the company have given you a set of tasks and responsibilities they havent trained to to doa dn then countermanded your decisiosn and instructions afterwards.

 

Now there is case precedent for suing an employer for promoton people beyond their abilities so perhpas that is the way forward. 3 days ay for someone calling sick or a long, expensive drawn out battle over competence of an overpromoted person?

 

Thanks ericsbrother, the thing is that by listening to our telephone conversation she indeed said, and i quote: "I'm too upset and not in the right frame of mind to come to work", that's why we are pushing for an error from my side.

Being not fit for duty, mentally or physically is to be consider sickness, right?

On another note, they accepted that i put it down as compassionate leave paid, but they never pay it, although their own policy says that it's at manager's discretion.

I was the manager making the decision and they accept this, but they also reserve the right to override these decisions despite this not being mentioned in the policy.

My point in the grievance was that even if they don't accept that she was unfit for duty (sick), i had made the decision to pay her absence, how and why did they change my decision???

They're now losing so much money in underperformance from our site that it's unbelievable, all for £300.

We're all pretty peed off with this story and everyone knows what happens when the morale is low: Poor performance and sickness.

I pointed this out to a senior manager off the records (in the toilet lol) and he just shrugged his shoulders and said the company is run that way and virtually nobody can challenge the directors, as they just ignore everyone.

This girl is determined to get her £300 back also because she found out that a supervisor on another site was allowed 2 weeks to go to his father in law funeral in the Caribbean, all on compassionate leave paid.

This supervisor is related to a local politician, so you do the maths.

Is that fair?

She said she'll take them to county court and see what happens, but I'm not convinced that's their jurisdiction and it should be taken to ET instead.

[ericsbrother]

you answered your own point, you have the discretion and they overruled you. She has a slim chance of a breach of contract claim but with all things discretionary it is hard to argue that it is merited unless there has been a consistent application of this with others and not her. county court deal with such matters, probably easiest route as less formal than ET

I see this as something you can progress but ultimately you would be risking your job as you may be following a path that comes to a point where you have to decide to either drop it or leave on a matter of principle. Also, you ahve accepted the mangerail job and had all of your duscussions without any formal confirmation. That is most unhelpful to both you and this woman and doesnt help your employer either but they will be coming back to work whatever the outcome of any action.

[king12345]

you answered your own point, you have the discretion and they overruled you. She has a slim chance of a breach of contract claim but with all things discretionary it is hard to argue that it is merited unless there has been a consistent application of this with others and not her. county court deal with such matters, probably easiest route as less formal than ET

I see this as something you can progress but ultimately you would be risking your job as you may be following a path that comes to a point where you have to decide to either drop it or leave on a matter of principle. Also, you ahve accepted the mangerail job and had all of your duscussions without any formal confirmation. That is most unhelpful to both you and this woman and doesnt help your employer either but they will be coming back to work whatever the outcome of any action.

 

Believe me erics, they tried to get rid of me so many times and they always ended up having to sack or transfer one of their managers.

Just wanted to make clear: I'm not a manager, i was only acting as an interim or plastic or seconded or whatever they call it nowadays.

They asked me because I have covered for my managers in the past for leave, sickness etc.

Before accepting, as always i asked for full power in writing.

This is because on one occasion a couple of years ago i sent a guy home early to attend his son's birthday and he gave back the two hours by staying an extra hour the following 2 days.

Our manager at the time (now working at a checkout in supermarket) heard this and tried to give me grief.

So i went back to my post and whenever they need me i ask for full authority in writing.

This time they messed me up, so they can forget my help: I do what I'm paid to do and nothing else.

She's going to start a county court claim for the £300 and personally i think they'll pay up as soon as they get court papers because it will cost them more to defend this.

I let you know what happens

[mariner51]

IMO, the Co may defend to protect it's perceived public image.

[king12345]

IMO, the Co may defend to protect it's perceived public image.

 

I don't know, if they really wanted to protect their image they would pay bereavement leave instead of saying "you had a death in the family? We're so sorry for you that we're not gonna consider paying your wages against our own policy"

Anyway, customers and staff already have a very low opinion of our company and this has been going on for a few years.

In fact we think that at one point in the near future they will shut down.

Even some contractors don't wanna have anything to do with us anymore because of the poor practices and late payments.

[ericsbrother]

All I can say is that I hope it works out well for both of you. It is a long time since I worked for a bad manager or company that behaves in such a pettifogging way but that is really the problem. reasonableness doesnt come into it.

[king12345]

I have no trouble really.

I've gone back to my post and we're running without a manager, too bad for them.

But this girl is on the war path, i think she's been affected by her loss much more than she shows and this injustice is getting to her really mad.

Won't be surprised if she calls sick for a long spell, she's well geared up for a breakdown and i don't know how much this £300 meant to her financially, but i suspect a lot.