Emergency lockdown in London after Policeman stabbed outside Parliament

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

I am meaning when countries were conquered in the name of religion, or whatever.

 

Perhaps it is because our fathers and grandfathers went to war to protect our freedoms that we take for granted what they fought for, the other side think, I will do my best to instill fear and no one will rise up against us....they don't have the stomach to protect themselves. I am not advocating blood shed, but so far the other side are managing to spill blood of innocents. The problem is they are more fanatical.

 

Terrorism is not Religion.

[tobyjugg2]

Define 'worked' from "nothing has worked".

If your definition is "prevent all terrorist attacks" then you are correct: nothing has worked, and nothing short of a totalitarian state with intrusive surveillance could.

Even that would only ever limit attacks, nothing can completely prevent them!.

 

Quite right

Hister and Stalin found that out, although Kim Jong-un seems to be 'learning' from past failures.

[obiter dictum]

Other side are managing to spill blood of innocents. REALLY??

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-air-strikes-mosul-230-civilians-killed-dead-isis-held-iraq-battle-islamic-state-a7646011.html

Edited March 24, 2017 by obiter dictum

[king12345]

It's true that you can't stop a lone wolf, but the authorities have a long list of terrorism sympathisers, hate speakers and wannabe marthyrs.

Those are the people that should be under constant surveillance.

At least it would prevent some terrorist action.

Toby, you're putting a price on human life, breaching the very same rights you want to protect.

[tobyjugg2]

Toby, you're putting a price on human life, breaching the very same rights you want to protect.

 

You are COMPLETELY wrong. I'm NOT putting any price on human life, I'm saying that liberty and freedom is priceless, even more valuable than human life - as millions who have died to achieve it and protect it have demonstrated.

 

.. commonly against those who would deny or erode those freedoms in the very way you describe

[king12345]

You are COMPLETELY wrong. I'm NOT putting any price on human life, I'm saying that liberty and freedom is priceless, even more valuable than human life - as millions who have died to achieve it and protect it have demonstrated.

 

.. commonly against those who would deny or erode those freedoms in the very way you describe

 

When you talked about the billions needed to monitor people it sounded like you meant that a few lives are not worth that much money

[tobyjugg2]

When you talked about the billions needed to monitor people it sounded like you meant that a few lives are not worth that much money

 

Perhaps you should consider that was just part of the scene setting for the tragic and monstrous (and physically and financially possible) loss of liberties.

 

Sadly it does seem the increasing and spreading loss of liberties and basic freedoms the story told is the least of your concerns, perhaps because you currently still have them.

[king12345]

Perhaps you should consider that was just part of the scene setting for the tragic and monstrous (and physically and financially possible) loss of liberties.

 

Sadly it does seem the increasing and spreading loss of liberties and basic freedoms the story told is the least of your concerns, perhaps because you currently still have them.

 

I don't know.

I just feel that I wouldn't mind being under surveillance if that meant saving even one life.

[BazzaS]

I don't know.

I just feel that I wouldn't mind being under surveillance if that meant saving even one life.

 

And since you are likely "just an ordinary citizen" rather than "a person of interest" ; this implies all citizens should be under surveillance.

 

How many staff would be needed to do this 'blanket' surveillance?

Who trains them? Would surveillance of "targets of increased interest" suffer as a result?

 

How to avoid the masses of data generated hiding (rather than yielding) useful information? The "signal to noise" ratio would decrease dramatically as the "noise" rises ......

 

Cries of "something must be done" are a predictable response.

 

YOU can do plenty already though.

Be aware of your surroundings when out in public.

Report anything suspicious

Be a good neighbour and supportive to any minority group, especially if you see them being harassed : inclusiveness will reduce risk of radicalisation.

Carry on with what you do day to day : show that you aren't being terrorised.

 

Adopt sensible responses but don't "throw the baby out with the bath water".

[tobyjugg2]

I don't know.

I just feel that I wouldn't mind being under surveillance if that meant saving even one life.

 

and in that you would be dishonoring and making worthless the lives of the millions who have already given their lives to gain those freedoms.

 

No one or even one thousand lives is worth that.

 

 

Look up 'slave mentality'

[tobyjugg2]

And since you are likely "just an ordinary citizen" rather than "a person of interest" ; this implies all citizens should be under surveillance.

 

How many staff would be needed to do this 'blanket' surveillance?

Who trains them? Would surveillance of "targets of increased interest" suffer as a result?

 

How to avoid the masses of data generated hiding (rather than yielding) useful information? The "signal to noise" ratio would decrease dramatically as the "noise" rises ......

 

Cries of "something must be done" are a predictable response.

 

YOU can do plenty already though.

Be aware of your surroundings when out in public.

Report anything suspicious

Be a good neighbour and supportive to any minority group, especially if you see them being harassed : inclusiveness will reduce risk of radicalisation.

Carry on with what you do day to day : show that you aren't being terrorised.

 

Adopt sensible responses but don't "throw the baby out with the bath water".

 

Absolutely excellent description of quite the opposite of 'slave mentality' Bazzas,

and what we all should strive for

 

 

Well worth reading and thinking about:

 

http://www.alt-market.com/articles/670-understanding-the-slave-mentality

 

"

The True Slave: The true slave is not a person who has been shackled, beaten, tortured, and made to comply under threat of death. As long as that poor soul has the spirit of rebellion and is ever seeking freedom, they are not imprisoned fully.

The true slave is a person who enjoys their subservience, who is weighted with fear .."

[obiter dictum]

Just to put this into perspective with those who wish to justify mass surveillance on its own citizens and justify erosion of civil liberties

 

Harold Shipman has killed more people in this country than any form of islamic terrorism. He was nothing more than a deranged individual like the Westminister attacker. Why is he not being called a terrorist?

[BazzaS]

Harold Shipman has killed more people in this country than any form of islamic terrorism. He was nothing more than a deranged individual like the Westminister attacker. Why is he not being called a terrorist?

 

What was his intent? To kill people for the feeling of power, and the money he stole from the estates of some of them.

Was his intent to terrorise? No, he didn't want publicity for his murders or to induce fear.

 

He was a murderer, not a terrorist. Not all murderers are terrorists.

 

For a terrorist, the killing / maiming is a means to an end : to create terror.

Changing the nature of your society as a result of fear is what they desire.

[obiter dictum]

Then by the same point are coalition forces that killed 200 civilians in an air strike in Mosul the other day Terrorists??

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7pqP7zPHSAhWlC8AKHZ5VD1sQFghJMAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-middle-east-39383989&usg=AFQjCNF22Lffnsw9uyCz98BbXuTmEe4HQQ

[BazzaS]

Then by the same point are coalition forces that killed 200 civilians in an air strike in Mosul the other day Terrorists??

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7pqP7zPHSAhWlC8AKHZ5VD1sQFghJMAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-middle-east-39383989&usg=AFQjCNF22Lffnsw9uyCz98BbXuTmEe4HQQ

 

I'm sure 'the other side' will describe them so, and attempt to use such as justification.

 

Yet, it comes back to the same point ..... what was their intent?.

[tobyjugg2]

What do terrorist want publicity what do we give them. Until investigations prove a terrorist agenda surely we call it a criminal act.

 

and this very sensible statement proves so very correct.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/25/westminster-attack-khalid-masoon-acted-alone?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=218995&subid=19389892&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

 

It shows how easily we fall into the media and 'official' responses

 

Its also of prime importance that the police/government calling it a terror attack gives them far greater powers.

 

I wonder how many of those homes they raided and people they took into custody was actually done illegally in breach of the basic human rights under terrorism laws we should be protecting as this was just a criminal nutter - not a dash (deliberate extra insult intended) terrorist?

 

(There apparently was no reason whatsoever to believe it specifically was a terrorist attack)

 

Why should we care?

Because its the slippery slope to everything being terrorist attacks until unequivocally proven otherwise, and laws implemented to address mass terrorist attacks suddenly become our default laws - which would never have passed into normal law.

and so YOU could live next door to someone who performs some CRIMINAL act without you even knowing them and find yourself in custody with no rights whatsoever.

 

as Andrew Neil said despite still promoting the Terrorost rhetoric:

“If you think we’re going to be cowed by some pathetic, Poundland terrorist in an estate car with a knife, then you’re as delusional as you are malevolent."

 

or more accurately

If you think we’re going to be cowed and our society changed by some pathetic, Poundland nutter with a knife in an estate car, then you’re a bigger problem than they are

[determindator]

It was raised on the Politics Show this morn as to why the security arrangements were changed considering how vulnerable the exits and entrances are surrounding Parliament.

[tobyjugg2]

or more accurately

If you think we’re going to be cowed and our society changed by some pathetic, Poundland nutter with a knife in an estate car, then you’re a bigger problem than they are

 

Here are Nigel Farage’s British values: rubbishing London for money on Fox News

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/24/nigel-farage-british-values-london-fox-news?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=218893&subid=19389892&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[obiter dictum]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-admits-westminster-attack-immigration-fox-news-sean-hannity-a7650541.html?cmpid=facebook-post

[king12345]

About slave mentality:

I have no fear of being under surveillance, in fact i couldn't care less.

I also have no fear of terrorists because I believe that i will go when my time is up, so I have very little control over when I'm gonna die.

Death doesn't scare me either.

How am I a mentality slave if I live my life without caring about people watching me?

I do what I have to do and carry on, I do not care about people looking at me or listening to my conversation.

[obiter dictum]

Look at it this way, When you go to the toilet you lock the door for privacy. So by your own rhetoric you have no argument for a camera in the bathroom watching wipe your sphincter muscle?

Edited March 26, 2017 by Andyorch
edited

[king12345]

Look at it this way, When you go to the toilet you lock the door for privacy. So by your own rhetoric you have no argument for a camera in the bathroom watching wipe your sphincter muscle?

Personally I only lock the door to signal that the toilet is occupied.

I couldn't care less if people watched me.

If that amuses them...

[obiter dictum]

Will go further, when you get home you close your front door to shut out the outside world

 

You have no argument then for a CCTV camera in your own home monitoring your private movements by the state?

[tobyjugg2]

and Amber Rudd calls for all social media to be OPEN to security services based on a nutter with a knife using whatsapp before going berserk

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39398190

 

As anyone who knows will tell you, this ONLY AFFECTS LEGITIMATE USERS.

Any terrorists would simply use something else or add encryption within the app

(probably before anything even got implemented)

 

So this would simply be even more spying on normal law abiding citizens

 

So Rudd is either CLUELESS or DECEITFUL

[BazzaS]

The argument then (which I don't accept : see above for postcards v. letters in envelopes) is that only people up to no good need to use encryption, so anything encrypted is then worthy of attention.

 

Mind you : who knows how secure the encryption method is?.

It has been alleged that after World War 2 machines based on the "unbreakable" Enigma method were sold for diplomatic and commercial use, with the fact that the electromechanical method (the 'bombe') for breaking the encipherment was available to GCCS.