Aintree NHS Parking breach of contract

[Smokey1607]

I recently got a ticket at the hospital,

long story short

the car park was full but no sign to say so and there were 15-20 cars circling looking for a spot.

 

After a good 20-30 minutes someone left and I dived in only to see it was on yellow chevrons at the end of an aisle.

 

The car before had no ticket and I couldn't wait any longer so took the risk

. As it was full I should not have been allowed entry or there should have been a sign to say it was full.

 

On the yellow bag is printed Breach of Contract and on the ticket it says Legal Notice of Breach of Contract and its for £60 or £30 if paid within 14 days'.

 

I have now received the follow up letter from Trethowans Solicitors demanding payment within 14 days of the letter dated 21st October.

 

How am I best to proceed as I think I was allowed into the car park when there was clearly no availability to park?

Thanks

[silverfox1961]

Hi

While most of this is not yet relevant, could you please let us know as much as possible from these questions:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp

[Smokey1607]

Thanks, will do. Still at work so will do asap.

[Smokey1607]

1) 12/9/16

2) No appeal

3) No mention of PoFA

4) N/A

5) Initial payment was to be made to Aintree NHS Hospital Trust with appeal to their Car Parking and the subsequent letter is from Trethowans Solicitors with payment to be made to them.

6) Car park at Aintree NHS Trust, Lower Lane, Liverpool L9

 

Thanks

[ericsbrother]

Write back to the rentathreat soliciotrs and tell them that there is no keeper liability in this matter and to tell their client to take the matter up with the driver at the time. Any further correspondence will be reported as harassment.

In truth there are several reasons why this claim is rubbish but rather than go through them all and give the parking co the opportunity to change their story just make them do the running with this simple truth.

NEVER TELL A PARKING COMPANY WHO WAS DRIVING AT THE TIME.

[silverfox1961]

At the moment, I cannot find any link for Aintree Hospitals NHS foundation trust with either ATA (IPC and BPA). A bit more searching required.

 

Can you upload the documents received in pdf format (so we can zoom in) but please remove all identifying data. The car registration, your name and address, reference numbers and any barcodes or QR codes.

As they make no mention of PoFA then it should be assumed they are members of the IPC but I can't find anything on the IPC website (unless they trade under a different name) or it is a subcontractor using the hospitals name for the charges.

[silverfox1961]

After doing a little searching, it is likely that you haven't received a Notice to Keeper as Aintree issue parking tickets and then when they get no response, they pass the matter directly to Trethowan Solicitors. As such, there is no keeper liability. You are under no obligation to name the driver however Trethowan do take court action and as such, you should complain to the hospital CEO.

 

As the car park is barrier entry/exit there should be controls in place to stop entry once full. As this did not happen, I would consider it to be a type of entrapment. You are allowed in but not allowed out unless you go to the ticket machine. In that time, you could get a ticket.

 

After reading around some forums, it seems Trethowans use PoFA as and when it suits them so I would be writing back to them stating that as no valid Notice to Keeper has been issued then they can only claim against the driver and that you are under no obligation to name them.

I would also demand that they tell you under what right they had to obtain the keeper details from the DVLA as they don't seem to be a member of any of the trade bodies.

Send this by snail mail, Signed For delivery and ensure that you print off the proof of delivery.

 

Expect some guff from them saying that they have complied fully.

[Smokey1607]

Aintree NHS Parking Ticket and Solicitor follow up. September 2016.

[ericsbrother]

not POFA compliant so send the one line response "there is no keeper liability in this matter, tell your client to take the matter up with the driver at the time. Any furhter correspondence will result in a complaint of harassment"

[Smokey1607]

Yes thanks very much, I've done a combination of this and what silverfox said.

Help from both appreciated. Cheers.

[ericsbrother]

OK, do take this matter up with the DVLA by asking them who requested your keeper details and why. There may be a complaint to the ICO about whoever it was and the DVLA for giving it out.

[silverfox1961]

OK, do take this matter up with the DVLA by asking them who requested your keeper details and why. There may be a complaint to the ICO about whoever it was and the DVLA for giving it out.

 

Ditto. Unless the hospital or the solicitor has a special dispensation (which I doubt) how did they get keeper data? Are they using a registered PPC to get the details for them?

 

As such, questions need to be asked and quickly. We have no idea how long Trethowans take before issuing court claims.

[ericsbrother]

Read the pranksters blog about MIL getting a flaming for the misuse of the KADOE system that the ppc's use (basically the computer access to the DVLA database and the conditions they agree to) this would fall into the same category, they cant use it for passing on to others

[Smokey1607]

Reply from Trethowans received today.

Action/response?

[silverfox1961]

Silly question but one that should have been asked earlier. On the original ticket, was there anything about appealing?

Below is a link to the Gov and hospital charges

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles#fnref:5

 

If they did do court, the simple fact is the barrier allowed entry when a car park was full but not allowing exit without a ticket so by parking anywhere to go and get the exit ticket verified would automatically have the risk of getting a ticket.

[BazzaS]

What was the date of the original ticket? (notice to driver / NtD).

What was the date of the original letter from Trethowans? (that they claim is a notice to keeper / NtK)

 

You could claim that the letter from Trethowans doesn't state that it is a NtK.

Either way, it seems they intend to rely on POFA 2012, Schedule 4, to establish keeper liability.

They issued a NtD ; their "NtK" notes this, so the keeper now knows this even if the driver hasn't mentioned it

 

Since they issued a NtK, para's 7&8 of Schedule 4 apply (rather than para 9, which is for when no NtD was issued, only a NtK).

 

8(2)(f) requires

(2)The notice must—

(f) warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

(i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and

(ii )the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

 

Their "notice" states 14 days after the NtK, not 28 days. So, it isn't POFA compliant. (It may be non-compliant on other grounds too, but in case they are reading, lets 'keep the powder dry' : no need to give them all the flaws to correct at once!.)

 

So, "Dear Sirs,

It remains that your supposed 'Notice to Keeper' does not comply with the requirements of the POFA 2012. There is thus still no 'Keeper liability'.

 

If you still feel your letter of is a POFA 2012 compliant NtK, a court can decide this based on the arguments from the parties.

As it appears our positions are entrenched in disagreement on this fundamental issue, no further correspondence will be entered into, pending receipt of a County Court claim."

[BazzaS]

What was the date of the original ticket? (notice to driver / NtD).

What was the date of the original letter from Trethowans? (that they claim is a notice to keeper / NtK)

 

I see their most recent letter says "NtD": 12/9/16 and "NtK" 21/10/16.

They are now out of time to send another (POFA compliant) NtK.

I see they want you to tell them why you think their "Ntk" is non-compliant. I don't see why you should do their job for them.

If it came to court (which it won't!) you'd have to tell the court ; you have no obligation to tell them!.

[ericsbrother]

so did you get on to the DVLA and ask who has accessed your data and what reason did they give. If you havent you will now see why we ask these things. Trethowans are hoping that your ignorance means you wont question their assertions again and now pay up. I would suggets you avoid any correspondence with them until you know from the DVLA whether they claimed they were using the POFA to obtain keeper details or whether they were relaint on the relevant section of the RTA. There is a big difference and that is they mustshow reasonable belief that the driver and keeper are the same and that menas not just them saying it is obviously the same but having some evidential trail that leads them to this conclusion

[Smokey1607]

Thanks guys and to try and answer in sequence of your comments since my post at 10.22:

Silverfox there was mention of appeal but for a number of reasons I didn't, so not sure if this was an oversight on my part.

 

BazzaS I see you answered your own point on the dates and appreciate your information and it seems to make sense to reply on the lines of your post at 11.12. ericsbrother do you agree or do you think ignoring for now is best? I think replying as BazzasS says shows I know whats what (thanks to you guys) and they may just cease without further court threats etc?

 

And yes ericsbrother I have been on to DVLA but have had no response yet. I'll chase it up but think they're still within their reply by time frame to my complaint. I see in that last comment you say dont respond to them until I know what DVLA say and then reply as BazzaS says with additional comment based on DVLA?

 

Thanks again everyone, just too busy to look into this myself so all your help is massive.

Edited November 11, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

No harm in not replying until you have the info from DVLA.

 

You want to let them know you won't be browbeaten and you "know what is what", but at the same time avoid "letter tennis" so they know you aren't an "easy mark", so that:

A) they give up and move onto "easier fry", or

B) are stupid enough to admit to unlawful actions .... either in a letter to you or (less likely) a submission to the court!

[Smokey1607]

Reply from DVLA attached.

[ericsbrother]

usual stock response that doesnt answer the question of WHY your data was accessed. anyone can access the data if they have a reason for doing so, giving false information to get that information is an offence though and that is what this is about.

Basically the DVLA make money flogging it on but is slapdash about checking the reasosn why these companies are dipping into the database as it is a nice earner for them. It is the lack of a genuine reason and the automatic access that is the issue, not the who may

[Smokey1607]

Is this something to pursue then with the DVLA? If so any suggested wording/points to make?

[ericsbrother]

you need to know what reason Trevs gave and whether they quoted POFA.

[Smokey1607]

Thanks, question asked and will post reply asap.