Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Indians, traditionally known as avid savers, are now stashing away less money and borrowing more.View the full article
    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Rogue Trader Gas Engineer now suing


momma
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3012 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I'll try to condense this.

 

Last year I contracted a Gas Heating Engineer (registered) to fit a new boiler in my daughters flat.

 

Unbeknown to me and my daughter, he In fact, he sent an unregistered unqualified plumber (his friend) in his place as he was 'hung over' from the night before..as was this plumber, but not as bad as the Gas Heating Engineer and apparently 'drew the short straw'. Only registered engineers are legally allowed to work on the gas.

 

The plumber made a complete hash of the work that he did, did not complete all the work, caused damage to my daughters property, and then used the Gas Heating Engineers reg number to fill in the paperwork, filled in his own name, but signed it as the G Engineers name??. When I found out, I called Gas Safe and reported an illegal gas fitter.

 

Gas Safe inspector came round and said the job was poor and to get a 'proper' Gas Safe Heating engineer to come and complete the job and rectify all the mistakes so that building regs could be applied for and the boiler to be register for a guarantee. The boiler manufacturer refused to give a guarantee until this was done. The Inspector gave us a list of reputable people.

 

The Gas Safe Heating engineer told the inspector that he did not send anyone else in his place, but he came himself. The inspector showed my daughter some photo's of the engineer, my daughter said it was not him. He then found a photo of the guy that did the job..daughter confirmed that he was the guy and the inspector said that he was not registered, the installation was illegal as this guy had been struck off.

 

The Inspector then said in an aside to me, that I had a contract with the heating engineer who had not done the work, not a contract with this rogue plumber..I hope you have not paid him!

 

The Gas Safe Heating engineer then sent me an invoice for full payment which I questioned and also asked why vat had not been added as he was a Vat reg company, and was told that it was a private job so not collecting the Vat.

 

I phone HMRC and questioned this and was told he had to collect the vat or be responsible for it himself. I was also asked to pay this invoice to a third party..a plumbers merchants that he had bought goods from. HMRC said this was probably money laundering?

 

Anyway, I paid the bill in part, in 'full and final payment' which he accepted at the time (last Feb). I deducted from the invoice the cost of finishing and rectifying the job and to put right the damage that was caused to my daughter property. Have the invoices to prove these amounts.

 

Yesterday, dropped through my daughters door, a summons for her..who had no contract with him. He is now claiming for the money that I had deducted from his invoice. There was also a summons for me, to her address. I have never lived at her address. I have no financial connection to her address, so why send a summons to her address and not mine?

 

Now for the questions:

 

(1) She had no contract with him at all. I was the one who contracted him..how is she liable?

 

(2) My summons is to her address with which I have no connection...is this legally served?

 

(3) My contract was with him, not his friend..he did not fullfil his contract with me but sent an illegal worker who should not have set foot in my daughters property. I am legally responsible to pay him?

 

(4) The summons is being brought in the name of the Gas engineers "company," not privately. This company is now 'Dissolved', so how can a summons be brought by a company that no longer exists?

 

We are not sure how to respond to these summonses. If anyone can help, it would be appreciated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

She is not liable and the claim should not be made against her.

 

The claim is legally served but as it is to the wrong person, it is simply a question of her defending and saying that there was no such contract.

 

You are legally liable to pay him a sum which is proportionate to the work that he did after having deducted any other expenses or losses.

 

For instance, if he supplied you with the boiler and the boiler is okay then you will be liable to pay for that. One problem that I see is that as he has acted illegally, is probably not entitled to look after your installation in the future therefore he is not able to provide a guarantee for the work. This could lead to a problem into a three years time if the boiler breaks down or need some other repair work which should be covered by the installation guarantee. He would not be qualified to do that.

 

You're quite right about the claim. If the company is dissolved and it cannot bring the claim. Is the company in administration? In which case the administrators would be duty-bound to try and collect any money owing to the company.

 

If the company is dissolved then he should identify himself as a claimant "in administration"

Link to post
Share on other sites

In respect of the sum is addressed to your daughter, she should simply defend

 

 

  1. The claim is denied
  2. It is denied that there was any contract between the defendant and the claimant. The claimant did carry out work at the defendant's address but this was at the request of the defendant's mother and any contract which might exist exists with her.
  3. In any event, the claimant is a limited liability company and which according to the information on the website at companies house has been dissolved. Therefore the claimant is not competent to bring any action

The claim against you is slightly more complicated but also won't cause any problem.

 

One of the complications will be how to mount a counterclaim so that you get compensation for the lost guarantee that you should have had if he had been properly qualified – because I imagine, first of all, that he would have been struck off, and if he hasn't been struck off then there is such bad feeling between you, for which he is clearly responsible, that nobody could reasonably expect you to put any repair work into his hands and to be confident of a satisfactory outcome. This needs to be dealt with

 

I'll have to give this some consideration.

 

For the time being I suggest that you simply acknowledge the claim and say that you intend to defend. That will give you 28 days and we can work things out from there.

 

So there we are, acknowledge your claim and intend to defend.

 

Defend your daughters claim using the very simple sentences that I have given you above.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that you should stop protecting yourself by gathering information and also writing letters.

 

I think the you should write a formal letter of complaint to HMRC and tell them exactly what happened and that a VAT registered gas fitter who operates as a limited liability company did job view and tried to bill you as a private person on the basis that "it was a private job" and that for this reason he was not trying to charge VAT.

 

Tell HMRC that since then you have fallen out with the gas fitter to such an extent that he has sued you for some outstanding money for that job and he has attempted to see you in his company name and that this proves that he was doing the job as a company that trying to defraud the revenue of VAT by saying that the job was a private job.

 

Ask HMRC if there is any action that you should be taking.

 

Next, you should write a letter – a formal letter of complaint – to whoever it is registers these gas fitters and explain to them exactly what happened and name the person. Explain to them also that he attempted to act fortunately in respect of the invoice by presenting it as a private job when in fact it was being counted on the books of his limited liability company and that you have evidence of this in that he has now sued you for outstanding payment of the job using his company name.

 

Provide both HMRC and also the gas fitter organisation with copies of the claim form.

 

Ask the gas fitter organisation if they will confirm to you in writing that this man is still registered or has he now been struck off or what is his status.

 

Even though you can probably look up his registered status on the Internet, you should still put these questions in writing to the organisation and hopefully get some written response from them.

 

Additionally, start looking up on the Internet and find out what is registers statuses at the moment and what it is in two or three weeks time – in case he has subsequently been removed from the register.

 

The information that you obtain here will be very important as part of your arguments your case.

 

I'm very concerned that the work you have paid for is not now properly guaranteed and in fact the gas fitter will not be able to guarantee it for you because he will either be unable to carry out the work because he is no longer registered – or because it would be inappropriate for this man with whom you are in conflict to be relied upon to do any kind of decent or reliable job on your central heating installation.

 

This means that what you need is a cast-iron guarantee for the work for a period of at least four or five years.

 

I think the solution here is probably to find out the cost of an extended warranty for your installation running for about four or five years and then to mount a counterclaim for that value. This would essentially give your system the protection which you are entitled to under the original installation contract. Does that sound an interesting way to go?

Of course, this means that you would actually have to buy the warranty from some company and you would have to be prepared to pay the the instalments all whatever payment scheme they wanted for as long as you wanted the warranty to continue. However, if you won on the counterclaim then this would theoretically give you the money for that.

 

Of course, you may will find that your plumber is a bit of a slippery customer and you might find it difficult to enforce a judgement. It will help you to try and do some research and to find details of the plumber's home address and then to check and see whether he owns property. If you find that he does then you have an asset which you can execute against and this will allow you to secure your judgement

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi both Bankfodder and Conniff,

 

The company is dissolved, last year. It was a limited company with only 1 employee (him) and one Director..assume a sleeping partner? I have printed from Companies House the declaration that the company is dissolved and the date etc.

 

I have all the paperwork..letters..emails between myself and him.

 

I have the letter stating 'full and final settlement'. He took the money and did not respond until now, nearly a year later.

 

My daughter has a full report from the Gas Safe Register Inspector.

 

She has the invoice from the 'proper', registered heating engineer who finished the job and rectified the installation.

 

She has the invoices for repair to the property and the photo's of the damage before the repair.

 

HMRC..no, but I can easily go back to them. I have his Vat number. I would assume that he should have paid Vat on he amount that I paid him last year.

 

With regard to the separate summons for me sent to her address. Is this still legally served or can she send it back stating 'not at this address'? I don't live anywhere near her now as I moved away in the middle of last year, six months after this happened. Is she legally required to pass this summons to me?

Edited by momma
extra information
Link to post
Share on other sites

No. You must deal with everything. The important thing about claim form is that it comes to your notice. The address is a technicality.

 

When we come to deal with a defence we can explain that it is not the correct address but for the moment the safest thing to do is to acknowledge.

 

If in the acknowledgement form it gives you an opportunity to fill in your correct address then do so. However, it really is just a technicality and it's not a basis for trying to frustrate the claim.

 

You are in such safe ground here I really just wouldn't worry about it please follow the advice I have given.

 

You haven't responded back on the issue of whether you are concerned by the lack of guarantee for the installation.

 

Personally I would have thought that this would be a major concern because even though it has now been correctly installed, in the next two or three years you could always suddenly find some problem develops and if you do not have some kind of guarantee you will face yourself with more expense which few handle things correctly now needn't be necessary

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Bankfodder, your advice is starting to fall into place and make sense.

 

My daughter had concerns that in the event of a breakdown, she would incur at least labour costs. The original contract with the rogue, stated that the installation was guaranteed. We had not even thought of counter suing for this. The boiler itself is now guaranteed for a five year period, but not the layout. Does it cost to counter sue?

 

I had also suggested (if this is possible) to third party counter sue ,the plumber who actually installed the boiler pretending he was registered, for the deducted amount of the invoice..damage, rectification of the installation and finishing the installation. I know where he lives..facebook and people finder are an asset at times! In other words, for the amount that this rogue is now trying to sue both me and my daughter for.

 

Where in all this, does the fact that he is suing in the dissolved companies name fit in? Should this be mentioned at all?

 

I also meant to mention, though not sure if relevant, he sent an electrician..who was also hung over. My daughter said he stunk of alcohol, and moaned for the 20 mins he was there that he needed to be in bed. In an email to me, this rogue also claimed that he did not send an electrician, but HE did the electrics as well as fitting the boiler. My son is an electrician and checked the electric out for safety.

Edited by momma
extra information
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you could bring in the plumber as a third party defendant to your counterclaim if you wanted.

 

They are called a "part 20 defendant". Go to the court services website and search on that or else Google "part 20 defendant" and you will find out what the rules are.

 

When you say that you know where he lives, do know that he owns his property.

 

What about the original gas fitter? Do you know where he lives? Because he has been operating under the cover of a dissolved company, you will be able to counterclaim against him in person even though he has sued you as a company.

 

If you can find out where he lives and if he owns same property as well, you will be in a good position.

 

If you sue the actual fitter is a part 20 defendant then I think that you could sue him for fraudulent misrepresentation and on the basis of the paperwork that you seem to have, this could get you a very good level of damages assuming that you win.

 

Please check the acknowledgement form and see if it allows anywhere on it to you to enter a different address the service of documents. It will be pretty important that when the case is transferred, that it will be transferred to your local court. That will have an additional benefit that it will cause additional inconvenience to the claimant because in order to attend any hearings et cetera he will have to travel to your local court.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't know if either person owns their properties. I have two addresses for the rogue engineer, so will try to find out which one he lives at. I have checked both addresses on google earth and can see a plumbers van parked near one of them.

 

With regard to the local court. That is a fine idea. I am disabled, wheelchair user so I should be able to request a change of venue. I am not sure if I have to pay to counterclaim? but am retired on a benefit that give me exemption from court fees.

 

I really need to see what is written on the summons which I will not get until next week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just put his registration number into the Gas Safe Register website. The company is still showing but it is blank. There are no registered employee's showing anymore, so I guess he has been struck off???

 

I will have to leave this for today, but will be back in a couple of day once I have the paperwork. I really appreciate any further advice, meanwhile..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Write to the organisation and get them to confirm the strike-off. Do it by email if poss.

Call them on Monday and ask - but get it confirmed in writing

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't know if either person owns their properties. I have two addresses for the rogue engineer, so will try to find out which one he lives at. I have checked both addresses on google earth and can see a plumbers van parked near one of them.

 

Check the Land Registry website

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I'm confused.

 

Not got the paperwork from my daughter but she has told me that the claimants details are as follows:

 

Name of dissolved company, followed by the address of company, which is not the address of the dissolved company but has changed to the address of a 'debt collection agency'.?

 

How does this figure into my response?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please will you scan and post the documents up here in pdf format.

I think that we need to see them in order to understand it fully

Link to post
Share on other sites

Will not get the paperwork before Tuesday, but my daughter has said the claimant is:

 

Original dissolved company. Address is of a debt collection agency. It is signed by the rogue heating engineer, and he has put his position as: Director.

 

He was never the director of the company. The company was dissolved with massive debts. I have seen the last accounts that state this.

 

There is no new company showing on Companies House website. I will call them tomorrow and give them the details to see if they can shed some light.

 

When I put this guy's name in on Companies House to check for a director in his name. There are no directors registered at

 

Companies House under that name. It is an unusual foreign name.

 

Under: Brief particulars of claim is just states: Unpaid monies.

 

Edited to state: I have just put the company's name in Companies House to see if it is available for me to set up a company in that name, and it is available as there are currently no companies of that name registered.

 

There are no other details at all.

Edited by momma
Extra info
Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's wait until we see the documents. It gets very complicated when there are third parties, and the contents of documents are relayed by word of mouth etc.

A shame that your daughter doesn't have a £50 scanner so that documents could be sent very quickly.

This is something which is going to hound this case because she will receive further documents and there will be further delays.

I think that this would be a very good time to invest in a scanner http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing-accessories/printers-scanners-and-ink/scanners/canon-canoscan-lide-120-flatbed-scanner-10029719-pdt.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that this would be a very good time to invest in a scanner

 

I have an old Canon flatbed scanner she can have for free (postage at cost).

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

No... you can't eat my brain just yet. I need it a little while longer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a nice offer. What model is it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, my daughter does not have a computer so no need for a scanner. Thanks for the offer Mr. P

 

I should have the papers in the post tomorrow and will do my best to scan after removing personal names and addresses..bear with me on this one, I am in my 70's and not that good with technology.

 

On thing I have found out this morning is that I went back to the site that I got him from..Rated People, and he is still advertising on there with the Company name stating that the Company is gas safe registered. How can he do this when the company is dissolved.

 

The company started to be wound up months ago London Gazette??

 

He has rated comments after the dissolution of the company.

 

Also, when a company is dissolved, what happens to the bank account of said company? Looking on the bleak side and we do end up in court and judgement goes in his favour, then the payment would be made to a company that no longer exist, if you see what I mean. Is there anyway that I could find out if this company's bank account is still active?

Edited by momma
Link to post
Share on other sites

Please take screen shots of everything you find

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have done!:-)

 

The company's websites are down and there does not appear to be anyway to contact him other than through Rated People, someone who he has done a job for is jumping up and down trying to get him to come back an finish the work and rectify certain things. Is complaining that he cannot contact him.

 

It also states that they give a 15 year guarantee on all boilers that they fit.:lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good. Keep on taking screen shots of anything you find.

Also, it might help to contact other victims and tell them to come here.

 

Maybe it's about time you told us who this person is and the link to his website

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...