ANPR ltd PCN for in my own designated parking space. Appeal refused

[Junkie2222]

Hello,

Firstly, I live in flats with my own space. We have a Right to manage arrangement with a company that deals with our day to day. We had problems with the old company and used RTM to remove ourselves from their management. Thought i'd say as it may or may not be relevant.

I went on holiday for the few days and took my permit out for my dad to use while i was away. I got back and forgot to put it back on display.

I got a ticket for ' not displaying a valid permit '. They now want £50.00 which has now doubled because of a failed appeal. I checked in the forum and sent an appeal that stated.

' To whom it may concern,

Invoice number: Pxxxxx

As the registered keeper of the vehicle index EUXX XXX, I wish to invoke your appeals process due to the fact that I am not liable to pay the amount invoiced or any other amount to you.

It is my own space and therefore wish for you to provide me with a pre-estimate of loss. I'm giving you this information to save you the effort of continuing this.

Please cancel this charge immediately or issue me with a valid and correctly issued POPLA code.

You cant and wont win, so your choice.

Signed

Registered Keeper.

To whom it may concern,

Invoice number: Pxxxxxx

As the registered keeper of the vehicle index EUxx xxx, I wish to invoke your appeals process due to the fact that I am not liable to pay the amount invoiced or any other amount to you.

It is my own space and therefore wish for you to provide me with a pre-estimate of loss. I'm giving you this information to save you the effort of continuing this.

Please cancel this charge immediately or issue me with a valid and correctly issued POPLA code.

Signed

Registered Keeper.

I have received a letter back denying my appeal. See attached JPG. ( hope a JPG is ok )

I knew they would deny the appeal. I expected and long drawn out mission but the principle of the matter really annoys me. We were requested to provide number plate details to the company. I asked the owners association person in our flats to see what he could do. He said they can do it and can't or wont help.

I'm a stress head of a person at best and now I'm a bit concerned that I'm getting involved in something I perhaps shouldn't. How should i proceed? I know the ignore it option but they seem more organised than a UKPC which i had the same issue with some years ago. In that case, I just replied to every letter with ' I dispute I owe you any money ' and eventually a 'cease and desist ' letter.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Junkie2222]

Just added the wrong jpg. Blanked out the personal details. sorry.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG. Thanks for putting the right attachment up as I was just in the process of hiding them.

 

Any chance you can convert the image to a pdf file so that the contents can be seen properly for those of us that cannot read small letters!

 

As it stands, ANPR should have included a POPLA code. You should win.

 

Even if POPLA refused your appeal, ANPR would have to take court action to get a penny out of you.

 

Please check any signage and photograph them, check your lease terms and conditions to see what they say about permits

[Junkie2222]

I'll work on converting the JPG. To be fair the sign does say that a valid permit be displayed. I'll take some photos tonight. Upload the photos as photos?

Also, I'm the owner of the flat. Have lived there 10 years. Lease? Cor dunno where did i put that? Can it be looked up online?

 

As a PS. I can only check this forum between 10am and 5pm GMT. I work in computers, no internet at home, need the break from it.

 

Also, should i now appeal to POPLA? That didn't exist last time. I kind of have admitted liability, at least to the man on our management committee and I'm sure if it came to it, he'd sell me rapidly!

 

OK. I looked up POPLA appeals and have read that you need a 10 digit code. That is supplied by ANPR right?

[silverfox1961]

Hang on. If the parking space is your own property (i.e you don't pay extra for it) then your rights over ride any perceived power ANPR think they have over you. I assume your parking management company arranged the parking scheme and issued the permits?

 

None of this really matters as ANPR would have to prove their loss, which is....Zero.

 

Why not contact the management company. They should get this ticket cancelled.

 

Can you say on what grounds you appealed to ANPR with?

 

Junkie2222 said:

OK. I looked up POPLA appeals and have read that you need a 10 digit code. That is supplied by ANPR right?

 

As they haven't supplied a POPLA code, I would hold on till later. Ericsbrother has the knowledge to deal with this and in the meantime, I will see what I can find.

 

I pinched this from another thread where a POPLA code was not supplied.

 

Quote

they unlawfully rejected your appeal so they have to provide a POPLA code or similar. If they dont provide this with the letter of rejection then a clock starts and they have 35 days from the date your appeal was sent to them to give you that code. No code and keeper liability disappears.

 

This was from Ericsbrother. As ANPR are members of the BPA, they should be following the rules and when rejecting an appeal, they must issue a code. They have failed to do so.

 

If you didn't name the driver of the car, they are stuffed as once keeper liability fails, they can only pursue the driver and of course, they will also be out of time to do that.

[Junkie2222]

I have contacted a committee member, who says that no one can over ride the ticket. I havent contacted the management company directly though. I will do that today. ( or shall i not now? ) The letter I sent them is pasted in the original message. Actually twice. I took the bit out about ' they cant and wont win '. My wife says it sounds like a challenge, which it was but I did it without.

I have a flat in gated complex. We pay a service charge monthly. We also pay a half yearly ground rent on the flat and the space. Which, I think are billed as separate items. It's my space on the lease, signed 10 years ago. The owner of the land gets the ground rent, paid through another company. We have a management company that deals with upkeep etc and the ANPR firm are employed by them.

Should they provide me with an appeals code as requested? I didn't mention the driver, it was me but equally could have been my wife. We have joint insurance.

I'm a bit confused. I'll hold fire on contacting the block management company until tomorrow. See what shows up here. I've done it all before, so I know it ends up being a long drawn out thing, that eventually goes away. I just don't want to miss a step anywhere and hurt my cause if it does go to court. The new law they mentioned is the only real concern. I haven't really looked into. Anything that mentions a law can be countered by ' neither confirms or denies ' my solicitor told me about something once. Laws are rarely specific. I may be wrong, I'm definitely no legal eagle.

 

@silverfox1961 Pretty much my whole appeal letter. sent registered.

 

Signed

Registered Keeper.

To whom it may concern,

 

Invoice number: Pxxxxxx

 

As the registered keeper of the vehicle index EUxx xxx, I wish to invoke your appeals process due to the fact that I am not liable to pay the amount invoiced or any other amount to you.

It is my own space and therefore wish for you to provide me with a pre-estimate of loss. I'm giving you this information to save you the effort of continuing this.

 

Please cancel this charge immediately or issue me with a valid and correctly issued POPLA code.

 

 

Signed

Registered Keeper.

[silverfox1961]

This is the guidance leaflet about PoFA. Quite short and easy to read.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

[Junkie2222]

Thanks for that Silverfox. Have read it and basically says that they need to provide a pre estimate of loss to the land holder. This would be my management company i figure. Who can not lose anything by me parking in my own space. It says court action is possible but I think all the terms have to be met first. So far by asking what i have in my appeal, they aren't meeting their end of the bargain. Still ,court worries me slightly but last time it was nearly £500 and no court so we have a way to go. hopefully they see reason before it gets ridiculous.

[silverfox1961]

I doubt you will ever see the inside of a court room with this plus the fact is this would cost them far more than they could ever get from you as it will be a small claim where costs are fixed.

 

I checked with the parking pranksters website and he had a list of cases taken to court. ANPR didn't even show up on that list.

 

You pay for your parking. As it stands, just sit on your hands. Once they run out of time to supply the code, any chance of a win in court will fail.

[ericsbrother]

You own the space and didnt give ANPR permission to trespass on your property so they have no rights whatsoever. As for the residnets association or managing aghents they cannot force anything upon you that you do not agree to or is not written into your lease so their hand wringing is all rather pathetic and a wasted energy. Ignore them.

As for Anpr, they are employed by the agents so there is no contract to break as their contract isnt worth a light as it must be with you or the freeholder to carry any weight at all.

Getting a POPLA code out of them will cost them £27 when you progress the matter and will theoretically force them to make available all of their evidence if you use the correct points at the appeal. However, they wont let the adjudicator see all of the relevant documents because they know that it would open up the possibility of them being done for fraud should anyone get Trading standards interested (they wont be-too busy) so your appeal will most likely be allowed by default. What I would do in those circumstances is park not showing your residents permit and see how many tickets you can collect and then go after them for harassment if you have the time and inclination.

[Junkie2222]

hahahaha! I just cant deal with the aggravation. I did think that to begin with. The last time with UKPC. I used to look forward to a letter and dive back on here and reply asap. I actually enjoyed it but it really isnt worth the amount of letters you have to write.

Thanks everyone for your advice again.

[Junkie2222]

As a footnote. I have received no further letters or requests for payment.

 

Thanks all. Really helpful again.

[ericsbrother]

I suspect they may pass it on to one of teh tame dca's but perhaps they have reralised they arent going to persuade you to pay up and have given up wasting their money chasing you for a non-existent debt.

That would be a shame really now that one can take class actions againt people, they would be out of business in no time at all if someone had the time and inclination to go down that route.