Greece & ISIS - next few weeks looking dodgy

[citizenB]

One thing I did notice, they have promised as part of the package to increase the rich income tax to 29%. Bloody 'ell, that is very low even compared to ours which is 40% and more.

 

If they are increasing it, what is it now!

 

 

Well if the reports are to be believed, connif.. they don't pay any tax.. so I reckon 29% is indeed quite an increase. All assuming that they can actually get anyone to pay it in the first place

[tobyjugg2]

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

 

Very interesting read and gives a pretty good idea how Greece has got itself in such a muddle.

 

Along with the read linked by citizenB above, the one below is also worth a read.

Its worth noting the references to image perception and suchlike.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3160873/Greek-Prime-Minister-Tsipras-faces-battle-quell-revolt-ministers-agreeing-austerity-measures-GERMANS-ashamed-forcing-them.html

 

I think no-one looks good from this, and I can't think of any way forward (even in rose tinted wishful thinking outline) that doesn't involve Greek collapse or the Eurozone supporting a completely broken and unsupportable system for decades.

[unclebulgaria67]

Along with the read linked by citizenB above, the one below is also worth a read.

Its worth noting the references to image perception and suchlike.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3160873/Greek-Prime-Minister-Tsipras-faces-battle-quell-revolt-ministers-agreeing-austerity-measures-GERMANS-ashamed-forcing-them.html

 

I think no-one looks good from this, and I can't think of any way forward (even in rose tinted wishful thinking outline) that doesn't involve Greek collapse or the Eurozone supporting a completely broken and unsupportable system for decades.

 

Austerity won't help Greece recover. But some debt management, where debt is made longer term and some debt written off related to reforms achieved, would be more helpful. What the EU forced on Greece, may end up costing them more.

 

This is a world problem. Look at Bankrupt places in the US. Argentina have had severe debt issues.

 

Current world economic system is bust. It relied on casino Banking to multiply money and that is being unwound. The super rich and corporations are not stupid, as they have $50 trillion in tax havens. Look at the sales of London property reported, with foreign investors looking to secure their money in a safer place.

 

This is not globalisation upsetting the applecart, but a fundamental problem with current economics. Human population is increasing at such a massive rate, at the same time technology is replacing people and the planets resources are depleting quicker. Money is spread thinner and then you have the wealthy keeping a bigger proportion for themselves.

 

I would suggest that what is needed is a comprehensive plan to manage the worlds resources more carefully. There should be less encouragement for people to have say more than 2 children. There should be more rewards for environmentally friendly activities e,g growing more local produce, planting trees, using green sources of energy. There should be minimum wages levels and better employment protection. There will need to be more social housing, to make up for lack of housing supply. Tax avoidance needs to be clamped down, with no exporting of profits to other countries. Tax havens should be made illegal, to bring hidden money back into circulation.

[tobyjugg2]

Before any of that can happen the Greek people need to change their world view and actions, else its all pointless.

But I agree that this is the way the whole world seems to be going - just some faster than others.

 

We really do need a complete change in world view, the trouble is as soon as some start others take advantage and profit from it destroying all the good.

[citizenB]

Austerity won't help Greece recover. But some debt management, where debt is made longer term and some debt written off related to reforms achieved, would be more helpful. What the EU forced on Greece, may end up costing them more.

 

This is a world problem. Look at Bankrupt places in the US. Argentina have had severe debt issues.

 

Current world economic system is bust. It relied on casino Banking to multiply money and that is being unwound. The super rich and corporations are not stupid, as they have $50 trillion in tax havens. Look at the sales of London property reported, with foreign investors looking to secure their money in a safer place.

 

This is not globalisation upsetting the applecart, but a fundamental problem with current economics. Human population is increasing at such a massive rate, at the same time technology is replacing people and the planets resources are depleting quicker. Money is spread thinner and then you have the wealthy keeping a bigger proportion for themselves.

 

I would suggest that what is needed is a comprehensive plan to manage the worlds resources more carefully. There should be less encouragement for people to have say more than 2 children. There should be more rewards for environmentally friendly activities e,g growing more local produce, planting trees, using green sources of energy. There should be minimum wages levels and better employment protection. There will need to be more social housing, to make up for lack of housing supply. Tax avoidance needs to be clamped down, with no exporting of profits to other countries. Tax havens should be made illegal, to bring hidden money back into circulation.

 

I so agree with this. Only the very wealthy can afford to have more than 2 children - and it looks like this government has gone some way to perhaps making people see if you cant afford more than 2 children, then don't have them because you wont get tax credits or nursery places for them.

[SabreSheep]

I think that 2 children should be the max for any couple

1 per person

 

Would go a long way to controlling population growth.

[tobyjugg2]

I think that 2 children should be the max for any couple

1 per person

 

Would go a long way to controlling population growth.

 

And many other issues

I fully agree with it.

[obiter dictum]

I am sorry but this is a blatant attack on the inalienable right to procreate for budetary reasons

 

I just think this is morally wrong. What next one child?? Or only if you are earning above a certain threshold you can even have kids

 

When people decide to have kids they are normally working and fit. That can change in an instant so why should the child suffer for what might happen later in life?

 

This is setting a dangerous precedent

[Conniff]

I am sorry but this is a blatant attack on the inalienable right to procreate for budetary reasons

 

I just think this is morally wrong. What next one child?? Or only if you are earning above a certain threshold you can even have kids

 

When people decide to have kids they are normally working and fit. That can change in an instant so why should the child suffer for what might happen later in life?

 

This is setting a dangerous precedent

 

There is no drafted or enacted law that says you can't have more than two children. You can have as many as you want, just don't expect other people to pay for them.

[unclebulgaria67]

World human population will hit 8 billion by 2025 and 10 billion by 2050. Very unlikely that there will be enough resources for these numbers, to live decent life's.

 

Unless there is a significant change to the economic system, which would require countries to work together. Tax competition allowing companies to offshore profits to pay less tax is obscene. If they want to enjoy being based in the UK, where it is more secure, with decent healthcare, schools etc, then they have to pay towards it.

.

[tobyjugg2]

There is no drafted or enacted law that says you can't have more than two children. You can have as many as you want, just don't expect other people to pay for them.

Absolutely

 

(but I still think that once there are kids, then education should be available free to ALL those kids who put in the effort and get results)

 

 

This is setting a dangerous precedent

 

You are correct - but less dangerous than allow the current set-up to continue unchecked.

It will need watching, but I think the only real option has been taken - although the implementation could have been better.

[citizenB]

I am sorry but this is a blatant attack on the inalienable right to procreate for budetary reasons

 

I just think this is morally wrong. What next one child?? Or only if you are earning above a certain threshold you can even have kids

 

When people decide to have kids they are normally working and fit. That can change in an instant so why should the child suffer for what might happen later in life?

 

This is setting a dangerous precedent

 

Sorry, I think you are wrong there CQnightmare. There is no inalienable right to have children. Nor is it morally wrong to expect those who want children, can afford to pay for them without expecting the tax payer to help out. There are those people who do not want children at all, yet through their taxes pay for those who do. Not all parents are in work when they have children.

 

I am also not happy with control of some religious leaders who will not permit birth control !!

 

There is no drafted or enacted law that says you can't have more than two children. You can have as many as you want, just don't expect other people to pay for them.

 

 

Absolutely

 

(but I still think that once there are kids, then education should be available free to ALL those kids who put in the effort and get results)

 

Education is already free up until the child reaches school leaving age. IMHO, we need to see those youngsters leaving school at 18 with a sound education. If not academic, then perhaps vocational.

[tobyjugg2]

Education is already free up until the child reaches school leaving age. IMHO, we need to see those youngsters leaving school at 18 with a sound education. If not academic, then perhaps vocational.

We are drifting off topic here BUT

 

I would take the changes even further

Reintroduce free school meals to ensure that all kids get a decent meal - all ages (reduce any family benefit to pay for it - then we'll know the money is going on the kids food)

Have before and after school care/clubs where kids gets involved in activities for any children, not just working parents

 

It would require massive changes to teaching.

 

It might sound a bit 'Hitler Youth' for some, but the theory is good, it just needs the right implementation.

[san_d]

Reading these comments I have realized that Adolf Hitler has won!

[tobyjugg2]

Reading these comments I have realized that Adolf Hitler has won!

I have no idea what you are trying to say or infer there san d.

Care to clarify or was it just a passing snipe which should be ignored?

[obiter dictum]

HISTORY LESSON ON GREECE AND DEBT:

 

When Greece joined the EU in 2000 they had access to cheaper interest rates and lending. Public spending and Government Borrowing went through the roof. In 2008 when the financial markets crashed it tipped the scales. It will help if Greece paid its fair share of income tax instead of the Black economy.

 

In 2009 it was revealed Greece had been falsifying reports on its debt for years. Investors pulled out and access to capital dried up. All except banks with the the WONGA business model. So before you slag off the EU for this Crisis, best check out the real facts first. Osbourne is doing exactly the same thing in the UK by including prostitution and illegal drugs to inflate our GDP.

 

And i support 100% the majority of Greek citizens who are not responsible and paying such a heavy price for those at the top.

[tobyjugg2]

HISTORY LESSON ON GREECE AND DEBT:

 

When Greece joined the EU in 2000 they had access to cheaper interest rates and lending. Public spending and Government Borrowing went through the roof. In 2008 when the financial markets crashed it tipped the scales. It will help if Greece paid its fair share of income tax instead of the Black economy.

 

In 2009 it was revealed Greece had been falsifying reports on its debt for years. Investors pulled out and access to capital dried up. All except banks with the the WONGA business model. So before you slag off the EU for this Crisis, best check out the real facts first. Osbourne is doing exactly the same thing in the UK by including prostitution and illegal drugs to inflate our GDP.

 

And i support 100% the majority of Greek citizens who are not responsible and paying such a heavy price for those at the top.

 

Although I broadly agree with your first 2 paragraphs, that last one simple doesn't wash.

Vast swathes of the greek populace have been avoiding tax's and fiddling the pension system (to name just 2) just like those at the top.

Its not just endemic, its a wholesale epidemic.

[citizenB]

I have no idea what you are trying to say or infer there san d.

Care to clarify or was it just a passing snipe which should be ignored?

 

 

The latter

[san_d]

I have no idea what you are trying to say or infer there san d.

Care to clarify or was it just a passing snipe which should be ignored?

I say that he advocated scapegoating the "different" and that I have seen a lot of fascist comments on this thread that could have suited 1930's Germany.

[obiter dictum]

Too bad that so many on the left Syriza included want to wallow in empty moralism and wishful thinking. "We invented democracy" better learn how to eat the f*cker then.

[tobyjugg2]

I say that he advocated scapegoating the "different" and that I have seen a lot of fascist comments on this thread that could have suited 1930's Germany.

 

Still can't make sense of what you are referring too.

Who is the 'he' you refer who advocated scapegoating the different? What/who different

What fascist comments?

Giving some examples, along with why you think they are incorrect or fascist or whatever might help understand your point, and why you seem to think Adolf Hitler won rather than died in defeat.

[Guest]

EU Council approves 7bn bridge loan to greece.

ex greek finance minister says current imposed economic reform will (already) fail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33578778

[obiter dictum]

Considering the Greek finance ministers lied to the EU for years as to the countries debt, i do not think they have any credibility left to comment on such matters

[Guest]

maybe his inside knowledge of the 'lies' etc you mention lends him to his opinion?

didn't the imf also criticise the proposals so far, though that bridge loan might satisfy the imf for the short term?

[tobyjugg2]

Of course it going to fail.

"It means Greece will now be able to repay debts to two of its creditors, the ECB and International Monetary Fund (IMF), due on Monday."

All this enables them to do is not default on previous loans they could not pay using more loans they cannot pay.

 

Without massive reform within the country on spending and taxation collection it just extending the misery - which the Greeks are clearly NOT doing apart from some bits that look barely enough to enable the rubber stamping of extending debts.

 

He's NOT right that it was capitulation or execution, it was slavery or a hard fight to freedom. They chose slavery.

 

Did they have a real choice - NO because they Greeks won't change by themselves even with these issues.