help required regarding TFL prosecution - **SETTLED BEFORE COURT **

[Old-CodJA]

I did try to ask a few solicitors today. No one seems to think I can win if I plead not guilty after my story about the whole case. Get solicitors to represent me before court could cost 1k+ which is even more than the fine I could get.

 

 

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I expected and have previously tried to make clear. TfL have not 'wasted Court time', their revenue staff have identified an offence, reported it and the prosecution unit have issued a Summons within the 6 month time limit allowed.

 

There is a remote chance that you may be able to get the Prosecutor to 'take a view', but the only chance you have in that respect is to go to Court at least 40 minutes before your case is timed to be heard and ask to speak with the prosecutor outside the courtroom and try to agree a settlement there.

 

I have to say that success seems unlikely, but make sure that you have cash with you in case they agree. If they do you will get a receipt for any payment.

 

When you speak to him or her, do not be distracted by only concentrating on the admin failures, that way is guaranteed to be unsuccessful for you.

 

Stress the likely effect for your future if convicted and I hate the word, but in effect you will need to 'grovel' a bit to see if you can appeal to their better nature. It may well not work, but as you have already been told by various solicitors, your chances of success by pleading not guilty are very low indeed.

[rebel11]

In post '9' (20/10/14), I suggested you visit CAB, they have access to solicitors, have you visited CAB? It's still not too late.

 

Yes you used somebody elses pass, you told them that. TFL has a process in place so they treat everyone equally, but for some reason, you are the exception to the rule.

 

Summary:-

 

I was cautioned. Revenue Inspector said I would receive a letter.

I received a letter asking for my side of events as is TFL's procedures.

I responded immediately via Special Delivery.

TFL signed for the letter. TFL received my letter.

TFL did not respond to my letter. I sent several chase emails to TFL.

TFL still did not respond. TFL recently sent a summons - with court date.

I contacted them again. TFL stated that they lost my letter, although TFL signed for it.

I wrote to the CEO of TFL. TFL adjourned the court hearing.

TFL has wasted court time. I sent another letter to TFL.

TFL carried on with the prosecution. This is the first and only time

I have failed to produce a valid pass.

 

It can still be settled on the day, but for some reason TFL has treated

you differently. If they don't settle, at least make sure the Judge is made aware of the above. You could print if off and hand it to the Judge, tell the prosecution, that's what you are going to do.

 

I did try to ask a few solicitors today. No one seems to think I can win if I plead not guilty after my story about the whole case. Get solicitors to represent me before court could cost 1k+ which is even more than the fine I could get.

[king12345]

I do have this, but not those suggested by king12345. TFL are very hard to communicate so I don't think they will post me any evidence which are not good for them.

 

Now it's probably too late to gain the evidence.

At this point, if you decide to plead not guilty, you will have to object to any evidence that they didn't disclose to you.

For example, if they didn't send you a copy of the ticket you should object to it being used as evidence.

Probably the magistrate will overrule, but if you politely insist that you were put in a position of disadvantage by not having the evidence, the magistrate (especially in case of a lay bench) would ask the clerk opinion.

The clerk is obliged to say that by law every piece of evidence must be disclosed to the defendant.

So, if they missed something important like a copy of the ticket, there would be no evidence to convict you.

In practice you would get off on a technicality.

However it's not unusual for magistrates to use common sense rather than the strict letter of the law, in my example they could allow the ticket to be used in evidence because it's clear that your position wouldn't have changed if you had a copy of it.

I would ask for an adjournment based on the fact that you haven't got all the evidence.

As said, your only hope is that there's some inconsistency in the evidence, that's why you need all of them.

[sddxac]

i have not contacted CAB cos i have thought my case can not get free legal advice. i already asked solicitors directly.

 

i can give the above to court tomorrow. but would it help to reduce any fine for my case? i even want to prosecute tfl for breach of duty of care but feel not easy to get evidence and legal cost could be high..plus it can only be after tommorrow.

[rebel11]

CAB provide free advice, they have access to solicitors, so it free. If your not confident in speaking, type it out and hand it to the Judge. It can't harm your case. If you haven't got all the evidence add that too. Hand a copy to the prosecution person as well.

 

i have not contacted CAB cos i have thought my case can not get free legal advice. i already asked solicitors directly.

 

i can give the above to court tomorrow. but would it help to reduce any fine for my case? i even want to prosecute tfl for breach of duty of care but feel not easy to get evidence and legal cost could be high..plus it can only be after tommorrow.

[Old-CodJA]

i have not contacted CAB cos i have thought my case can not get free legal advice. i already asked solicitors directly.

 

i can give the above to court tomorrow. but would it help to reduce any fine for my case? i even want to prosecute tfl for breach of duty of care but feel not easy to get evidence and legal cost could be high..plus it can only be after tommorrow.

 

 

Please note that I do not mean to decry the usefulness of CAB in any sense, they do a really great job in helping the unfortunate and underprivileged in our society, but we must all remember that they, like the forums, are staffed in the main by volunteers.

 

It is unfortunate for someone in the OP's position, but in the case of conviction this is not a matter where a prison sentence can be imposed for a first offence and therefore it does not attract legal aid. That means that the duty solicitor at Court is extremely unlikely to assist unless s/he offers their services pro-bono and that is only likely if there appears to be any procedural error or the charge is manifestly wrong.

 

The OP says that he has already spoken to a number of solicitors about all of whom he says 'No-one thinks I can win if I plead not guilty'.

 

I would hate to think that the OP goes away and finds a solicitor who gives poor advice just because it's what he wants to hear (yes, unfortunately whether by design or misunderstanding, some do) and ultimately makes matters much worse.

 

Having read through this thread and unless I've missed it, I do not recall that the OP has ever said that TfL did not serve evidence with the Summons.

 

His argument seems to have been around a failure to reply to a letter and email. We really do not know what is in TfL's file. We only have the OPs description of what he recalls and TfLs failure to accept his offer to settle out of Court.

[sddxac]

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I expected and have previously tried to make clear. TfL have not 'wasted Court time', their revenue staff have identified an offence, reported it and the prosecution unit have issued a Summons within the 6 month time limit allowed.

 

There is a remote chance that you may be able to get the Prosecutor to 'take a view', but the only chance you have in that respect is to go to Court at least 40 minutes before your case is timed to be heard and ask to speak with the prosecutor outside the courtroom and try to agree a settlement there.

 

I have to say that success seems unlikely, but make sure that you have cash with you in case they agree. If they do you will get a receipt for any payment.

 

When you speak to him or her, do not be distracted by only concentrating on the admin failures, that way is guaranteed to be unsuccessful for you.

 

Stress the likely effect for your future if convicted and I hate the word, but in effect you will need to 'grovel' a bit to see if you can appeal to their better nature. It may well not work, but as you have already been told by various solicitors, your chances of success by pleading not guilty are very low indeed.

 

would it still be possible to settle it last minutes before court starts? I will go there early to talk to the prosecutor first. But last time he said only the prosecution manager can decide to settle it or not.

[sddxac]

CAB provide free advice, they have access to solicitors, so it free. If your not confident in speaking, type it out and hand it to the Judge. It can't harm your case. If you haven't got all the evidence add that too. Hand a copy to the prosecution person as well.

 

the prosecutor did know the whole thing about my case. But he would argue on court that TFL has done the review, especially given it was adjourned 2 weeks to review.

 

I can bring these documents but if I plead guity, would this help to reduce the fine?

[honeybee13]

would it still be possible to settle it last minutes before court starts? I will go there early to talk to the prosecutor first. But last time he said only the prosecution manager can decide to settle it or not.

 

Hello again. Old-Codja always says it's possible to settle on the day, but he said in post further up the thread that you need to have cash with you to pay for the settlement if it's offered.

 

I don't know if he will be here again this evening or early tomorrow. What time are you in court please?

 

HB

[sddxac]

Hello again. Old-Codja always says it's possible to settle on the day, but he said in post further up the thread that you need to have cash with you to pay for the settlement if it's offered.

 

I don't know if he will be here again this evening or early tomorrow. What time are you in court please?

 

HB

 

10AM tmr, but I will go there by 9am and will only have mobile internet on my phone. I can bring cash but dont know how much is enough... I can not show the cash to ask for settlement, so that they dont misunderstand my action...

 

tbh, after all of the past communacation, I don't think it is likely to settle...

[Old-CodJA]

10AM tmr, but I will go there by 9am and will only have mobile internet on my phone. I can bring cash but dont know how much is enough... I can not show the cash to ask for settlement, so that they dont misunderstand my action...

 

tbh, after all of the past communacation, I don't think it is likely to settle...

 

 

 

The papers that you have received with your Summons ought to show how much the TfL costs application will be if they are successful in securing a conviction. You would be well advised to make sure that you have much more than that figure with you as a very minimum. The prosecutor might be prepared to call his manager by mobile if you put a convincing case, but please remember not to continue concentrating on what you perceive as their 'duty of care failures'. That will not work.

 

Exhibiting genuine remorse for committing the offence in the first place and any evidence that you can provide of the likely effect of a conviction MIGHT be persuasive, but that really is a long-shot at this stage. I agree, they appear unlikely to allow settlement, but you lose nothing by trying again.

 

Others have said 'pass a letter to the Judge'. This isn't a Crown Court case, it is very much more likely that you will face three Magistrates, occasionally a District Judge (formerly called Stipendiary Magistrates) may hear matters on his or her own, but this is a Magistrates Court hearing and will normally be a Bench of three (very rarely two) people.

 

If you have got something written out that you wish to rely on, you should hand a copy to the prosecutor before you go into Court and you should hand a further copy to the Court Usher who will pass it to the Legal Advisor for the attention of the Magistrates. The person who is actually running the Court process is the Legal Advisor and he or she may assist in explaining procedure for you.

[rebel11]

Any update?

[Sammy13]

Let us know about your outcome!

[rebel11]

The guys spent time and effort helping you, so can you post an update?, please.

[sddxac]

Sorry for the late response. I have finally settled this case out of court with TFL now.

 

I'd like to thank everyone who have helped me on this forum, rebell11, Old-CodJA, honeybee13, king12345, without you guys help, I can not adjourn the court date and settle this case finally. I understand everyone has helped me not for money, so I have donated £50(ref: 01M440779P6461403) to the forum. This is really a helpful place for people who needs help.

 

I think the following factors was considered when settlling my case by TFL:

1) admit the irregular travel

2) prove that it is occasional, and show you have a good travel history. In my case, I am lucky to retain all previous topup receipts for the past one year.

3) prove that the criminal record will affect you a lot, e.g. lost work, visa extension etc. I proved it by home office documents which show that visa extension is not allowed with criminal record within 24 months.

4) would like to pay the fine and costs to TFL

 

Also, most importantly, whatever you say, any evidences should be provided at the earliest. I have only given TFL my receipts for the past years before the hearing has started. It is very late but luckily I met a good prosecutor on the adjourned hearing and he made calls to the manager and finally decided to settle this with me.

 

Hope the above can help anyone else who needs help in future.

[honeybee13]

Hello again, nice to hear from you.

 

I'm pleased that you've managed to settle at the last minute and I'm sure you've had a hard lesson in how the system works. I hope you manage to avoid problems in the future.

 

Thank you very much for the donation, which will enable us to continue helping people who need us like you did a few weeks ago. And we advise on topics other than rail problems, you might find that useful too.

 

Thank you also for letting us know, I'll amend your thread title so it helps future caggers. And well done to the advisers.

 

Best, HB

[rebel11]

Well Done sddxac, thanks for letting us know the outcome and the donation.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, very well done. I'm pleased it worked out OK in the end and that the prosecutor on the day took a pragmatic view.

[king12345]

Nice one!