DWP Rules re JSA - Unjust and Simply Unfair

[essexmat]

OK, quite simply I have been under my GP for something and he sent me to see a consultant to run further tests - whilst there I had a blood test and Xray and he said he would write to me about a procedure where I would be in for a few hours and then able to go home later in the day. The letter about this came today and it clashed with my signing on day as the consultant doing the procedure on me only works on a Thursday for NHS patients.

 

So, I wondered what would happen when a genuine medical letter/appointment clashed with mysigning day so called DWP and they said I would have to take it as a sick day as I was 'not actively looking for work' I told them I just had 12 days via a JSA28 for something else and I am not using my second period of sickness in a year for ONE DAY at a genuine medical appointment - they told me I had to or change my appointment.

 

Angrily I put the phone down and called the hospital to change my appointment, I managed to get another date but 5 weeks later than the original date so now I have to suffer because it clashes with my signing day. No doubt INGEUS will also have a pop and arrange a pointless workshop for me on the new date.

 

So, as unemployed people we are told we can only have a certain amount of time sick and for a ONE DAY appointment I need to sign off sick - if I was going to sign off sick again it would be for 14 days not 1 - may as well use it properly if you are going down this route! The wholse system stinks - my health has to suffer because I am not actively seeking work for ONE DAY, yes, ONE DAY and am in for a medical procedure - quite frankly I am disgusted with this.

 

One things for sure, with my health getting worse as well as my depression and anxiety the last couple of months what with INGEUS really annoying me I can se an ESA claim in the near future as I cannot take much more of these rules and being dictated to in detriment to my health and sanity,

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Although the Jobcentre can't change your signing day they can alter the time of day you sign. I have had to do it on several occasions.

 

 

Could you arrange to sign on first thing in the morning thus leaving the rest of the day for any other business. Alternatively leave signing on until the end of the day and fit your medical appointments in first.

[essexmat]

Normally this is a route I would take, however I sent back my pre-op medical questionnaire today and the letter I got said "further information on admission times and pre-op preocedure will be sent to you around 2 weeks before your admission date" So I am not sure myself what time I am in, could be 9am could be the afternoon - the procedure is around an hour but I have to stay in for observation around 4-6 hours after. I have changed it now however not happy doing so as it means I have to suffer a further amount of time because of these stinking rules - no way was I taking sickness for ONE DAY - probably should have taken the 14 days via a JSA28 again then moved to ESA straight after!

[tomtom256]

People who work can only have so many sick days, if any at all with some employers/type of work, so iy's not just a benefits issue.

 

I appreciate that this causes you issues, but the rules are there for everyone.

 

Are you able to work the day after your procedure? What is the recovery time etc as this may also have an affect on your claim to JSA.

[essexmat]

It is not going to have any impact at all, quite frankly I have learnt my lesson - if I am well enough to push a few buttons on my laptop I am well enough to jobsearch doing one click applications - probably should have done this when I done my back and declared my sickness via my JSA28 - sometimes I wonder if I am too honest - probably best to be but many others probably just keep quiet about it. My procedure takes around an hour and been told I will probably be a bit sore after but OK to go home later that day all being well. Even if I am poorly the next day I will catch up with job applications the day after and log them as normal - no way am I taking more sickness and being treated like a criminal for a ONE DAY hospital appointment. I appreciate the rules are in place but the inflexibility is the major concern for me.

[antone]

People who work can only have so many sick days, if any at all with some employers/type of work, so iy's not just a benefits issue.

 

I appreciate that this causes you issues, but the rules are there for everyone.

 

Are you able to work the day after your procedure? What is the recovery time etc as this may also have an affect on your claim to JSA.

 

Yeah, though to be fair, most employers won't class you off as sick for 14 days if you only need one day off. The Jobcentre allows two periods of illness of "up to 14 days" per year, and you'll have used one of those whether you declare you're sick for 1 day or 14. I'm not aware of any halfway decent employer that would call you in for an RTW interview after a one day hospital procedure and say "Mr Antone, you've been off sick for the last 14 days!" But that is, in effect, what the Jobcentre does. Plus, of course, most decent employers would treat a scheduled procedure (where they have a chance to plan around the absence) as different from a case where someone calls up at 8am and says "I can't make it in today." Again, not the JCP.

 

Matt is right - it's inflexible and counterproductive, and it really isn't comparable to the way employers treat absence. But there it is. All I can offer is sympathy.

[tomtom256]

Yeah, though to be fair, most employers won't class you off as sick for 14 days if you only need one day off. The Jobcentre allows two periods of illness of "up to 14 days" per year, and you'll have used one of those whether you declare you're sick for 1 day or 14. I'm not aware of any halfway decent employer that would call you in for an RTW interview after a one day hospital procedure and say "Mr Antone, you've been off sick for the last 14 days!" But that is, in effect, what the Jobcentre does. Plus, of course, most decent employers would treat a scheduled procedure (where they have a chance to plan around the absence) as different from a case where someone calls up at 8am and says "I can't make it in today." Again, not the JCP.

 

Matt is right - it's inflexible and counterproductive, and it really isn't comparable to the way employers treat absence. But there it is. All I can offer is sympathy.

 

Sorry, i do feel sympathy, but my employer allows four periods of sickness or a total of 10 days sickness in one go before invoking the sickness policy.

 

So if I had 14 days off in one go or 4 single days off sick then I would be interviewed about my absence and possbily let go over it.

 

If/when you ring at 8 am and tell them you won't be in, the policy is to question why and to ask when you will return. Obviously I get SSP so it is different in that respect or sometimes they offer it as flexi and expect it to be worked back within the next month.

 

The reason I asked about recovery time was in case ESA may be a way forward for a few months if likely to be temporarily unfit for work owing to the procedure.

[essexmat]

Thanks all, I can see both sides of the argument but as my health has deteriorated the last few months due to a number of issues (not serious) but enough to make me feel down and depressed as well as incapacitated for a period I am seriously considering the ESA option in the very near future.

 

 

Although I am no fan of INGEUS or WP providers I would be doing this not to get out of attending but simply because I do not feel I am well enough at present. Would an ESA claim omit me from attendance at INGEUS and would ESA mean I would still need to go to JCP to sign for my money? Sorry, I never ever expected to even consider ESA and was set on JSA until I was in employment so the rules I am unsure of. All I know is if I do make a claim for ESA I sign on, get my 2 weeks money in arrears and sign off then claim my ESA but do I go to the doctors to get a sick note before or after?

 

 

Many thanks all.

[Conniff]

People who work can only have so many sick days, if any at all with some employers/type of work, so iy's not just a benefits issue.

 

I appreciate that this causes you issues, but the rules are there for everyone.

 

Are you able to work the day after your procedure? What is the recovery time etc as this may also have an affect on your claim to JSA.

 

 

Don't agree, the rules are not there for 'everyone', they are there for the DWP only and my betting is that there is NOTHING in the regs that state there is no flexibility or discretion.

[obiter dictum]

What then if JSA claimant was covered under the Equality Act as a disability. Changing a time of your signing to a different time on your usual signing day will be a reasonable adjustmant. That is if the hospital appointment needed if connected to your disability.

 

That would be so with an employer, so why not with job centre staff

 

With the job centre staff forcing a claimant to register sick rather than changing the appointment time not be a breach of the claimants protected characteristics??

[jasta11]

It's a disgraceful way to treat people with genuine reasons for wanting to change an appointment - and once again seems to vary from JC to JC. My JC has let people sign on earlier or later if they've had a valid reason like a medical appointment or interview. It makes the advisers life easy too, as you'd still be signing on the same day so all the paperwork is done and the money put through.

 

Plus how exactly can they class anyone as 'not actively looking for work' just because they have a hospital appointment??? The JC doesn't tell us which parts of the day we must spend looking for work - not yet anyway - so we could do our daily applications before going to the hospital, or after..or even via mobile while we're actually sat in the waiting room. I tend to do all my jobsearch in the evenings, so technically I'm not 'looking for work' during the day.

 

The sheer stupidity, pettiness and inflexibility of people who are supposed to be helping us never fails to amaze me.

[Conniff]

My JC has let people sign on earlier or later if they've had a valid reason like a medical appointment or interview.

The sheer stupidity, pettiness and inflexibility of people who are supposed to be helping us never fails to amaze me.

 

 

Which just goes to show there are no hard and fast rules about it, just some jobsworth who enjoys the power they think they have over others and the fun of causing buggerance.

[essexmat]

I am glad someone sees it my way, it is exactly my point, 'not actively seeking work' because of a medical appointment/[rocedure that can be proved with a letter from the hospital consultant - quite frankly it is a sick joke. No wonder I do my 2 weeks worth of job searches via one click in 30 minutes max now - I am sick of the lot of it

[essexmat]

Which just goes to show there are no hard and fast rules about it, just some jobsworth who enjoys the power they think they have over others and the fun of causing buggerance.

 

Quite. In a way I hope putting the procedure off makes me feel worse so I can prove a point. Whatever happens now an ESA claim is in the offing shortly as I am now getting to the stage of feeling pretty sh*t and depressed with it all. To top it all off I have signing on and INGEUS tomorrow - great

[essexmat]

OK, that is the next fortnights job searches and applications completed in 24 minutes via one click on CV Library

[PaddyDuffy]

First off Matt, i can feel your utter frustration & " to hell with it all " state of mind from your post`s.

 

I have read a good few of your postings & enjoyed them but i did wonder if after a long period of unemployment that i too could be feeling like you & others on here . i can literally feel the pain of unemployment through the post`s. Please try to stay positive & don`t let them grind you down. A better day will come, keep that chin up Matt & everyone else who is having a hard time. I`m so glad i found this site, a wee bit of mutual support helps.

 

The original question is sort of related to a question i asked my adviser about a possible interview i have coming up clashing with my signing on day, she suggested i could take an earlier or latter time to sign on or if the interview would take up the whole day i could arrange to come in the day before or the day after to sign on. this would have to be backed up by evidence & would make my payment a day or two late but she said it was not that uncommon for people with interviews or very important medical appointments to use this facility.

[essexmat]

Thanks mate, and yes very down and frustrated at the moment especially with various medical stuff going on and no movement from the DWP. It is sorted now but the job searching is pathetic - in fact I done a case study and just finalising it which I will post soon, maybe later if I finished it taking in to account 50 applications I have made - it has taken some time and as soon as I have tidied the figures up I will share it.

[CarolNG]

I feel your pain EssexMatt, but I'd councel against seeing ESA as an easy way to avoid to the stresses of the WP or JCP. Life is unfair and stressful for everyone and all of us feel depressed and anxious sometimes - just as all of us sometimes feel happy and elated.

 

It seems the curse of our age that the 'bad back' of the 90's is now the buzz word of 'Anxiety & Depression'. Some people really DO have bad backs, just as some people really do suffer from anxiety and depression. But each of us that goes to our GP to avoid WP and JCP with the unprovable catch all card of A&D, so it makes the life of those who really do suffer from it just that little bit harder and feeds into the whole current zeitgeist that we are all benefit scroungers looking for an excuse to avoid paying our way, etc.

 

Hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[essexmat]

Since 2005 I have had A&D and been on Citalopram

I suffer with OCD as well as A&D

I severely injured my back a few weeks back and have hospital notes and GP notes and have had scans

I am under a consultant for a private condition I won't disclose on here

 

Quite frankly I am surprised I am on JSA myself and not on ESA sooner

 

I DO NOT pllay the system, I am genuine

[CarolNG]

Listen Matt - I mean no offence. I'm only replying because you seem such a prolific and intelligent poster on this site that I was questioning why someone with such skill was not spending their time working rather than posting and railling against a benefit system that can only be voted out (and most average people seem to agree with anyway).

 

As Richard Pryor said - "Choose your spots, baby!" Not every battle is worth fighting, especially when we are in denial. x

[ims21]

Sorry for the interruption essexmatt.

 

As you know, most people who contribute here do so in a supportive manner.

 

Sadly we get the trolls like any other forum but this one has been dealt with now.

[essexmat]

Sorry for the interruption essexmatt.

 

As you know, most people who contribute here do so in a supportive manner.

 

Sadly we get the trolls like any other forum but this one has been dealt with now.

 

Thanks, I tend to ignore trolls but also do sometimes stick up for myself and others !