Landlord forgot to renew tenancy

[jarekjj]

Hi,

 

We moved in on January 2013, Fixed Term Agreement has a clausue that rent includes Council Tax for the first 12 months of tenancy. 12 moths passed, Tenancy expired and Landlady never contacted us regarding renewal or increase in the rent.

A two weeks ago we gave her a notice that we'll be moving out on 12 April. Today she called that we owe her money for two months Council Tax. We never saw the bill, it's in her name, and she never asked us to pay it before.

Do we owe the money? I don't think so. Can she deduct this from the deposit? which she hasn't protected by the way.

 

What do you think? Where do we stand?

 

Regards,

Jarek

[renegadeimp]

What does your tenancy agreement state?

[jarekjj]

It states: "Rent includes Councill Tax for the firs 12 months" but this agreement expired on 12 January 2014 and She never told us we have to start paying CT, or how much it is. We also never seen the CT bill.

[renegadeimp]

Im not too sure but i think once the original expires it becomes a rolling tenancy. Sit tight and someone should be around either tonight or tomorrow.

 

Just dont pay a penny without a full breakdown.

[raydetinu]

It defo becomes a rolling tenancy ( pst ) on the same terms as the original, but as the contract specifically refers to a limit for 12 months only, you should be paying it.

also would you not receive the demand at that address if you are on the register as living there?

Although why a LL would pay CT is beyond me? you are getting the services, and she must be paying CT where she lives?

[citizenkain]

you would have to be paying your council tax,before you move make sure its sorted,it can come back and bite you down the line!

[raydetinu]

Is the CT in your name and the LL was paying on your behalf??

[jarekjj]

It's in her name.

I wanted it to be it my name but she refused.

We even had a visitor from council once asking who lives here but she asked us to tell them we're relatives staying for holidays.

I'm sure she also didn't protect our deposit.

 

After the contract ended we stayed in on the assumption the rent stays the same as she never contacted us regarding increase of the rent or arrangements who pays CT now.

 

Now when we moving out she says we owe her money for two months CT but she never arranged the payments with us. I don't think she can charge us backwards.

[Steve__M]

Contract says that council tax is only paid for the first 12 months, so LL is technically correct. Technically though, you should inform the council and pay the council directly. But you should have informed the council when you moved in. You would have then claimed money of LL.

 

Landlady seems to be up to no good for some reason.

 

If the bill was in her name only she might have been claiming a single persons discount.

 

If council find out, they will want the rest of the money from you.

 

In future, if a LL tells you to do this, then don't. Having your landlord pay council tax is always problematical because it is the tenant who is responsible for the bill(except in a licenced HMO, I understand) and responsible for informing council they live there , so if the LL doesn't pay the bill the tenant is the one in trouble.

 

So I'd say you are in a tricky position.

[Steve__M]

I wanted it to be it my name but she refused.

 

PS. She cannot refuse. If you tell the council as you are legally obliged to do, they will do the correct thing and transfer the bill into your name.

[renegadeimp]

As mentioned already, the LL is fulling a fast one on the council. I would be tempted to contact the council and inform them.

[jarekjj]

I was thinking about it but I don't really want the trouble for her, and for us as well...

 

I just want to move out and don't argue with her about the money she forgot to tell us we shall be paying.

 

I think she realizes that she can't deduct this money from the deposit as it's unprotected and if worst comes to worst we could claim up to 3 times compensation.

[renegadeimp]

You know she's pretty much breaking the law right? And IF she is caught in the future, you could be dragged into it?

[jarekjj]

I'm aware of this, so what should I do?

 

If I inform Council now that I lived there for 14 months and she'was on CT bill (I don't know if she was paying), what Council can do to me?

[renegadeimp]

If you have paid her, and she has been paying the bill, then they'll do nothing. Theyll just recalculate the Ctax and change it to your name. Not hers. It's obvious she's pulling a fast one, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

[ericsbrother]

The LL may have the CT in her name because she want to show residnec at the property for when she sells it as a method of avoiding CGT on the increase in the value of the property. i would expect the rent to go down my a proportionate amount.

[raydetinu]

The LL could also be avoiding paying tax on the income from the property if she can show she lives there!!

You need to speak/contact her and ask why? and see if you can come to a sort of understanding about it and hopefully not have to pay the extra.

Also as deposit not protected she should not deduct anything from it, and you can sue her for that and get compensation ( expensive to do that )

so bring that to her attention as well.

You also consider court action which will bring all this out in the open, which she may not like.

[Beatrice Bee]

You are all in it together because when the council visited you lied for the LL and said you are family staying there [meaning: not tenants].

 

Winning a law suit does not mean that the loser will pay up.

 

"I just want to move out and don't argue with her about the money she forgot to tell us we shall be paying."

 

It is in the contract that the CT is included in the rent during the first 12 months of the tenancy. LL has no duty to remind you what is in the contract and ask you to pay CT. They do not remind you monthly that you have to pay rent because it is in the contract. So is the deal about the CT.

 

When the fix term expires, the tenancy rolls over on the same terms. The CT exemption only applies to the first 12 months so without being reminded, you should start paying it when 12 month is over. You can not pay it if you do not know how much it is so you got a point about "wanting the LL to tell you to pay CT" aka wanting LL to inform you how much it is and the bar code / account to pay it into.

 

It happened to me twice that LLs changed the lock to evict me illegally while I was out. There is no law saying you can not change the lock [to prevent an illegal eviction]. To keep it friendly, ask for the CT bills and pay it if it does not cause financial hardship. You committed fraud by misrepresentation when you stated that you are relatives of the LL. Under duress, fearing getting a notice, was it?

[Beatrice Bee]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/5

 

LL does not have to renew tenancy upon expiry of the fix term because if the tenant stays in possession, by virtue of section 5 of the Housing Act 1988, a statutory periodic tenancy arises [above link].

 

Letting agents can charge for renewing tenancy agreements so they do [to get money off the tenant]. Otherwise it is absolutely unnecessary unless you want to extend the demise / property.

 

To quit you need to serve a Notice to Quit, one month clear notice, expires at the end of the period of the tenancy [the 12th of the month]. It has to be in writing and served at the LL's address which should be in the tenancy agreement.

 

Did you pay cash in hand for rent and no receipts? She does not want evidence that it is let so guess so..

 

A tenant has to pay rent even if it is a squatter who let her the property because by law we can not question the LL's [...]

don't remember the word, sorry [estate?]

 

If you gave her the right period of notice, you can move out on 12th April. You gave notice prior to 13th March, right?

 

A notice to quit terminates the tenancy so if you do not move out by 13th April but pay rent and LL accepts it, a new tenancy is created [even if it is not written down]. During the first 6 months of an AST tenant can only be evicted for breaking the contract terms [eg over 8 weeks rent arrears].

 

By any chance, it is a conversion, and does the LL live in one of the flats because then it is a common law tenancy and it does not roll on into a periodic tenancy as statute does not apply. In which case contract should have been renewed but never mind.

 

The thread is called "LL forgot to renew tenancy" in case you wondering why I'm going on about renewal.

 

"LL forgot to tell tax office about rental income"

 

Well, when did the dead line expire? End of January?

[mariner51]

Your free CT 12 months has finished and you are now liable for CT, so contact the Council to notify them of change in liability.

With a bit of luck, LL will have paid last years bill either by monthly DD or half yearly, so no CT due until Apr.

Council will then send you notification of CT payable for 2014-15 and a bill if any CT due since liability changed.