code 21 pcn, a little advise please

[Jamberson]

I think you need to say something like:

 

The location of the suspended place was not adequately signed. The suspended place was signed as being "1 car parking space" and the location was described as "Side of 129 Upton Lane".

 

Along the side of 129 Upton Lane, there was a bay of more than one car length. The suspended car length could therefore have been anywhere inside this long bay - and it is down to the signage to indicate which section is off-limits. Since the sign said nothing specific, it is reasonable to take into account its physical location, to see which parking spot it relates to.

 

This is what I did - and in fact, the sign was located next to a different length of the bay to the one I was parked in, despite there being a vacant pole closer to where I was.

 

There was no way that I could have understood that I was occupying the space the council was intending to suspend, and I remain unconvinced that the place I parked really was suspended! It is impossible for me to know, based on the wording and positioning of the sign. Therefore, the signage is inadequate and the PCN should not be enforced.

[adhkar]

thank you jamberson for your speedy reply i really appreciate it, may i use your exact words as i don't feel i need to add anything else to that and its short and concise.

 

also which of the boxes do i tick? the alleged contravention didn't occur?

 

thank you once again.

[adhkar]

ok so this is a copy before i add the relevant info of PCN number etc. could you please tell me if the last paragraph is too confusing and i should just omit it. thanks

 

I received a parking ticket on 18/03/2014 but I believe the ticket was wrongly issued and I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons:

The location of the suspended place was not adequately signed. The suspended place was signed as being "1 car parking space" and the location was described as "Side off 129 Upton Lane".

 

Along the side of 129 Upton Lane, there was a bay of more than one car length excluding the disabled bay which is where the notice was wrongly situated. The suspended car length could therefore have been anywhere inside this long bay - and it is down to the signage to indicate which section is off-limits. Since the sign said nothing specific, it is reasonable to take into account its physical location, to see which parking spot it relates to.

 

This is what I did - and in fact, the sign was located next to a different length of the bay to the one I was parked in, despite there being a vacant pole beside the space I was parked.

 

There was no way that I could have understood that I was occupying the space the council was intending to suspend, and I remain unconvinced that the place I parked really was suspended! It is impossible for me to know, based on the wording and positioning of the sign. Therefore, the signage is inadequate and the PCN should not be enforced.

You would not place a suspension notice for a disabled bay in a normal bay if there is a vacant pole beside the disabled bay, so why would you place a suspension notice in a disabled bay for the suspension of normal bay when there is a vacant pole beside the bay you wish to suspend. Not missing the fact that the notice in itself is unclear as to which spot exactly is suspended .

[adhkar]

also i've read in other threads on here that there should be a phone number to contact on the suspension notice if this is correct then there was no number on the sign does it make this a non-compliant sign?

[adhkar]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51948[/ATTACH]

 

oh dear thats quite a small pic once uploaded to the site

[Jamberson]

I don't know about the phone number thing - someone else might. But yes, feel free to use my words if you wish.

 

I'd tick the contravention did not occur. It's not too important, but I think that is the best one - improper sign = no contravention.

[adhkar]

do i need to add photo's to this one too?

 

i've never had to go to formal appeal so a bit new to all this, thanks for your patience

[Jamberson]

If you can, and they clarify what you are saying, then yes attach them. It can only help.

[adhkar]

just received my rejection notice and git the patas form with it, any help as to how to proceed would be much appreciated. also not sure which box to tick : contravention did not occur?

 

not very confident that I'll win anyway, but council never answered my question as to why the suspension notice was attached to the wrong bay and it's just repeating what was in the first rejection notice, as if they haven't read the letter at all.

[adhkar]

letter reads as follows:

 

we have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your penalty charge notice.

 

you were given a penalty charge notice for parking in a bay that had been suspended. there were yellow signs saying warning parking suspended. no waiting, losing, unloading. bays are generally suspended to allow for road works or large delivery vehicles.

 

it is up to drivers to check if the parking bay is not being suspended ( which I did stupidly but didn't check the disabled bay behind me!)

 

you can view photographic evidence of your case online at etc...

[Jamberson]

OK, so appeal to PATAS.

 

Send the appeal again, to them. Point out that the council did not give a substantive reply to the points you raised, and merely repeated the general advice they gave the first time. And - why not - apply for costs on the basis that the council are being vexatious in not properly considering the gist of your appeal. (That costs - no compensation!)

[adhkar]

jamberson thank you so much for being so helpful but maybe I'm a bit dim, I don't get what you mean by the bits in brackets. also what costs am I incurring? that I apply for costs? I wasn't aware that appealing to patas will cost me anything other than my tube fare to get there am I wrong in assuming that!

[Jamberson]

It is free to apply to PATAS, but if you have to pay a rail fare, and maybe time off work, and what you've had to do so far - even if it only comes to a tenner - you can ask for it, it the council is "vexatious". If your costs are so small you're not bothered, then fair enough. Up to you.

[adhkar]

ah I see what you mean now. I thought some other costs. what exactly does vexatious mean?

 

so o send tthe exact same appeal to the adjudicator but add that the council had two opportunities to answer my questions regarding why the suspension notice was put on the incorrect bay and why the wording in the actual notice wasn't clear as to which bay was suspended. instead they either chose to ignore this or haven't read my appeal at all which I'm unsure of.

[adhkar]

how do you ask for costs though? does it have to be with the PATAS application and do you have to say exactly how much you are applying for or does the adjudicator decide how much? thanks again.

[adhkar]

should I point out that it was a one way street and the suspension notice was in a disabled bay behind my car. I looked at the road markings saw that it was a disabled bay and parked in the next available space, which is the council's declared suspended bay. I had a look at my bay pole and went by my business at no point did I walk past the disabled bay so didn't see the notice as it was put in the wrong place, or just stick to what's in the second appeal?

[Jamberson]

Just explain, like you did here, about the way the sign was placed and the fact that it didn't tell you which part of the bay was suspended. Don't just send them the same letter though (they'll have a copy anyway) - send them one which outlines the basis of your appeal, and state that the council has not given you a substantive answer to the points in your formal representation, and that they just sent you much the same letter as they had before as if they had ignored your explanation - so that is why you are applying for adjudication. Say that you consider their actions to be vexatious.

 

It means, by the way, that they are being awkward, stubborn, unreasonable - just pushing you for the money and ignoring the facts of the case. It's the word which is used in parking adjudication, so use that word and they'll know what you mean and why you consider yourself entitled to costs.

 

I'm not entirely sure how you ask for costs, but I think it's on the form? You need to add up all your costs since the PCN was issued - stationary, postage, any travel etc and time off work. Whatever you've spent/lost, you have a chance of getting back. It might not be much, but worth having if you can. He may or may not agree that the council were vexatious, but you stand a chance.

[adhkar]

ah I see, thank you once again can you proof read for me please (I know taking liberties but I've never had to go to PATAS before and I'd like to get it right)

 

I'll copy paste it in to the comments when I've typed it up no chance I'm writing on the actual form I'll just staple it to the form itself, I haven't got the best handwriting.

[adhkar]

Dear sir or madam,

 

I would like to appeal my recent PCN on the basis that no contravention occurred.

 

The alleged contravention is that I parked in a suspended bay, I don’t feel the council have fuly taken into account my two previous appeal letters as they sent out standard replies ignoring all my questions and that both letters were almost identical in what they said.

 

I am alleged to have parked in a suspended bay but when I parked my car I checked the sign post corresponding to the bay in which I was parked as I was a new permit holder for that zone I needed to check whether it was safe for me to do so in that particular bay. When I checked the bay pole which was next to my drivers side door there was the normal sign saying permit holders only so I parked and went on my way.

 

The bay behind me was a disabled bay and had a suspension notice within it. Now the disabled bay pole and the permit holder bay pole were approximately 3-4 foot away from each other. Not holding a disabled permit I had no reason to check if there were any notices in the disabled bay as I was not parking there in the first place. In effect the suspension notice was placed within the wrong bay, one which it was not corresponding to.

 

Secondly the actual wording on the notice itself is very ambiguous, it states that ONE parking space off the side of 129 upton lane is suspended. The side of 129 upton lane being 3-4 car lengths long the sign does not stipulate which parking spot exactly is suspended as it uses no clarifying words such as bay adjacent to disabled bay or space immediately after disabled bay which would be clear indicators as to which area was suspended. In this instance I could argue that it was the last space in the line of 3-4 cars and not the first.

 

I feel the council have acted vexatiously by ignoring my formal representations by sending me much the same reply as they did to my initial appeal and choosing to ignore all my questions, which I believe should have been answered so as to help me understand why they feel I still need to pay this PCN. I feel cheated in the fact that I as is stated by the council “it is up to the driver to check if the parking bay is not being suspended” which I did by checking the corresponding bay pole. One would not place a disabled bay suspension notice in a normal permit holder bay, so why would you place a normal permit holder bay suspension notice in a disabled bay? It seems quite clear that the council failed in their duty to correctly sign and word the suspension notice so as to clear up confusion to road users.

 

I hope I have managed to convey my appeal clearly.

 

Thank you very much

[adhkar]

too much info or irrelevant? please do advise if i need to change anything

thanks

[adhkar]

i'm assuming i don't need to attach photo's to this appeal letter?

[Jamberson]

Perfect letter.

 

Photos - you don't need to attach any which have already been included in previous letters to and from the council. The Adjudicator will have copies in front of him. You may as well take them with you if it gets to the hearing stage (ie, if the council don't back out before then) so you can show them anything you want to.

[adhkar]

I think I'll take photos with me to show exactly where the poles are and where the notice is and how unclear it was, as my cousin recently went to adjudication unfortunately via post and council lied saying that they hadn't put forward any photographic evidence to prove their point (which was no yellow line where they were parked as it had rubbed away but still ticketed for anyway) sad to say adjudicator decided in councils favour and my cousin lost hope at this point and paid up rather than risk an even further increase.

[adhkar]

just got a letter from the council saying they're not going to contest my appeal! yay result!

 

thank you to everyone who helped me especially jamberson.

[Jamberson]

Excellent. Well done.