Parking in a shopping centre

[devonshire]

will the harrasment act 1997 line work when replying to a parking fine? just keep ignoring the content of my letters.devo

[lilal]

borntobongo you are soooo right about the dvla.i to have been issued a parking ticket whilst in a Made For Idiots car park,notice clearly stated 2 hours and only for customers use.however the second i stepped off their property to get to the cashpoint to then return to shop i was ticketed.oh well they can,t access dvla database thinks i,mmmmm how wrong i was and lo and behold a demand for £35 doubled to £70 if it,s not paid within 2 weeks.contacted dvla and was informed that any company or individual can on payment of £5 have my details on reasonable grounds ,what they can be who knows ,however the dvla have admitted that an overnight link that can be used ONLY BY local authorites was used to provide my details to the car park co and that they were sorry but hey they can still have your details using the above manner anyhow:o and suggest that any further problems to deal with the parking co directly.nice. still not paid the fine ,they can take a run and jump;) and the dvla have been told thanks for admitting a breach of the data protection act now you can sort it out and I will be informing the ICO

[PhantomReclaimer]

contacted dvla and was informed that any company or individual can on payment of £5 have my details on reasonable grounds ,what they can be who knows.....

 

I fail to see how the DVLA could possibly consider recovery of a minor civil debt that isn't to do with the use of a motor vehicle on a public road, and that isn't even lawfully enforcible, as constituting "reasonable grounds" to have access to information.

 

P.

[lilal]

sorry to say but it is true ,and i quote"computer records held at dvla form a semi-public register open to enquiries from any organisation or person". she then states that information is released under specific legislation ,namely reg 27 (1) (a) of the road vehicles(registration & licensing) regs 2002 .further in the letter she states that a request was made for my details and were provided using the overnight link that should only be available to local authority or acting on the behalf of, my response being to which local authority does mfi belong to then.the reply i got was what you read in my last post.they could,t give a hoot if they have made a mistake or whether that it is wrong or right.they are making money from every application and the parking sharks are on a winner every time a ticket gets paid more often relying on people to pay up once the first demand drops on the mat, whether the ticket should have been given in the first place doesn,t come into it .we know that it is not enforcable but sadly many do not:(

[PhantomReclaimer]

sorry to say but it is true ,and i quote"computer records held at dvla form a semi-public register open to enquiries from any organisation or person". she then states that information is released under specific legislation ,namely reg 27 (1) (a) of the road vehicles(registration & licensing) regs 2002 .further in the letter she states that a request was made for my details and were provided using the overnight link that should only be available to local authority or acting on the behalf of, my response being to which local authority does mfi belong to then.the reply i got was what you read in my last post.they could,t give a hoot if they have made a mistake or whether that it is wrong or right.they are making money from every application and the parking sharks are on a winner every time a ticket gets paid more often relying on people to pay up once the first demand drops on the mat, whether the ticket should have been given in the first place doesn,t come into it .we know that it is not enforcable but sadly many do not:(

 

Sec.27(1) reads - the relevent part being seb-sec "e";

 

The Secretary of State may make any particulars contained in the register available for use -

 

(a) by a local authority for any purpose connected with the investigation of an offence or of a decriminalised parking contravention;


 
(b) by a chief officer of police;
 
© by a member of the Police Service of Northern Ireland;
 
(d) by an officer of Customs and Excise in Northern Ireland; or
 
(e) by any person who can show to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that he has reasonable cause for wanting the particulars to be made available to him.

As I have said previously, I cannot believe that anyone could consider that the pursuance of a debt that is not even enforcible at law could possibly constitute "reasonanable cause" for making such particulars available. Indeed, it is anything but reasonable!

 

P.

[falcon185]

I TOTALLY agree Phantom,

I would love to see it challenged as a test case in a court of law, DVLA could be liable for a hell of a lot of breaches under the Data protection act ;-)

[seylectric]

Reasonable cause? For what? The only thing they stand to gain here is profit. You haven't damaged or stolen anything, your car just happened to be in a place it shouldn't have been. No harm was done to anything or anybody. To my mind there is nothing there which warrants your personal details being issued to a private company.

 

The other thing is where is there a law which allows private companies to fine you or even decide for themselves whether it is the owner or the driver who is liable? Police and councils have to follow correct procedures, e.g. correctly worded documents and correctly painted lines and signage for example, which themselves have to be done to a set standard by law.

 

What, then, permits private companies to invent their own system? Are we saying that they are outside the constraints of the law/legal system? Driver, owner or whatever, it is my opnion that they have no legal right to impose their fine/penalty charge (or whatever you want to call it) upon you anyway.

 

Just ask them what their legal right is to fine you and to quote the law exactly, they won't be able to.

[PhantomReclaimer]

What, then, permits private companies to invent their own system? Are we saying that they are outside the constraints of the law/legal system? Driver, owner or whatever, it is my opnion that they have no legal right to impose their fine/penalty charge (or whatever you want to call it) upon you anyway.

 

You are quite right, a private person cannot levy a "fine" or penalty on anyone. A landowner, however, can establish whatever contractual regeime he likes in relation to the use of his land, as long as it's not actually illegal.

 

By using his land you are entering into a contract with him and you don't have to accept that contract if you don't like it's provisions. Breaching the terms of the contract though dosen't give him the right to fine or otherwise penalise you but he is entitled to sue you for whatever your breach has cost him.

 

P.

[lilal]

it is totally wrong .perhaps we should all remove are reg plates on a day as a protest against them and all the other money making methods

[seylectric]

You are quite right, a private person cannot levy a "fine" or penalty on anyone. A landowner, however, can establish whatever contractual regeime he likes in relation to the use of his land, as long as it's not actually illegal.

 

By using his land you are entering into a contract with him and you don't have to accept that contract if you don't like it's provisions. Breaching the terms of the contract though dosen't give him the right to fine or otherwise penalise you but he is entitled to sue you for whatever your breach has cost him.

 

P.

 

That well clarified thanks, but that's my point too - what has the breach of the landowner's terms & conditions actually cost him? Absolutely nothing.

[seylectric]

it is totally wrong .perhaps we should all remove are reg plates on a day as a protest against them and all the other money making methods

 

I thought this was quite amusing actually; a friend of mine knew someone a few years ago who was clamped at the back of Iceland (on their car park). He got the clamp removed but still got a bill for £90. He sent them a letter stating that admission to his property would cost exactly the same as they were charging him. A few weeks later they pushed a promo leaflet through his door. He sent them a bill for £90 for "the use of his garden path and letterbox". Having explained to them that it was a legal charge as they had been pre-warned he told them to go ahead with their claim against him in court and he would counterclaim. Needless to say he never heard another word.

[PhantomReclaimer]

That well clarified thanks, but that's my point too - what has the breach of the landowner's terms & conditions actually cost him? Absolutely nothing.

 

Ah but he has. If you, say, pay for an hour and overstay then the car park operator has a legitimate claim that he has suffered a loss of revenue for the period in which you were using his services for free.

 

P.

[PhantomReclaimer]

I thought this was quite amusing actually; a friend of mine knew someone a few years ago who was clamped at the back of Iceland (on their car park). He got the clamp removed but still got a bill for £90. He sent them a letter stating that admission to his property would cost exactly the same as they were charging him. A few weeks later they pushed a promo leaflet through his door. He sent them a bill for £90 for "the use of his garden path and letterbox". Having explained to them that it was a legal charge as they had been pre-warned he told them to go ahead with their claim against him in court and he would counterclaim. Needless to say he never heard another word.

 

This is quite good actually. His £90 clamp is not enforcible as it's an unlawfull penalty, yet the charge he levies on them probably is enforcible as it's a charge for their use of his property.

 

P.

[falcon185]

Ah but he has. If you, say, pay for an hour and overstay then the car park operator has a legitimate claim that he has suffered a loss of revenue for the period in which you were using his services for free.

 

P.

 

 

So if he charges 60p per hour and you overstayed by 10 mins why not send him 10p? Thats all he has lost, any other cost on top of that would be disproportionate ;-)

Sorry, just playing Devils advocate

[lilal]

all it comes down to is there word against your own and in my case my details were released on the say so of the company managing the car park but clearly not adhering to their own set rules displayed in the car park.i have contacted the company 3 times yet the collection agency tell me that i have made no contact with them.dvla have got a lot to answer for

[scouser9]

Heres one for you boys to laugh about.

 

My daughter is 19 and disabled she as a car from mobility and shows her parking cards wherever she parks.

Now the trouble is her boyfriend is 6 foot 6 and her car is a little citreon so after picking him off a night shift she went to Asda who's car parking system is taken care of by the council.

Well she parked in a disabled bay as normal put her card in the window and went shopping for a few things.

But himself (lofty Bugger) fell asleep and moved around whilst snoring and moving he knocked the card on to the floor. Quess what a £30 pound ticket, when the warden was putting the ticket on the car lofty legs said here is her cards and explained what had happened and the jobsworth still stuck the ticket on.

 

Quess who's paying the ticket? your right ( Lofty Legs ) or he walks home after nights. hahaha:D

 

Mikey

[PhantomReclaimer]

So if he charges 60p per hour and you overstayed by 10 mins why not send him 10p? Thats all he has lost, any other cost on top of that would be disproportionate ;-)

Sorry, just playing Devils advocate

 

Your dead right. His claim on you would be for the amount he's lost. In this case, 10p.

 

P.

[StudentInDebt]

Your dead right. His claim on you would be for the amount he's lost. In this case, 10p.

 

Plus the cost of either sending you a letter or employing a car park attendant to register your details and affix a request for payment.

 

Probably better send a pound just to make sure...

[falcon185]

Plus the cost of either sending you a letter or employing a car park attendant to register your details and affix a request for payment.

 

Probably better send a pound just to make sure...

 

 

Maybe the cost of sending you a letter but as for the parking attendant, if he employs one, then he is liable to pay his wages not the person parking ;-) Oh, and the fee for requesting your details from DVLA? no-one asked him to do that either so he should have to bear that cost too lol

[seylectric]

The one thing that annoys me about this whole issue is that councils CAN charge us £30 or whatever if we are a couple of minutes late back to our cars.

 

While nobody can condone what these private firms are doing, which is trying to con people into having to pay a "fine" which doesn't legally exist, the very people who are supposed to protect us from scams like this i.e. the government/council are themselves responsible for it's existance in the first place. Nobody rips us off more than our own government.

[born2bongo]

Just got back from my hols to find, amongst the welter of junk mail, 3 missives regarding my case.

 

Although the parking company have been told to get off my case or they will be regarded as harrassing me they have sent another letter telling me to cough up by 12 December or go to court. Looks like I'll be taking them to court for harrassment then!

 

The second letter was from the DVLA, following my initial complaint. I got the standard waffle about reasonable cause that everyone else gets. That's OK. I was expecting that. It was just the initial stage one has to go through before stage 2, which is to complain to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

 

They sent me a photocopy of the letter the company had sent them, which was more interesting. It covered a request sheet and there is no copy of this, presumably because the "client" has greater rights to Data Protection than me. The letter does not give a reason for making the request. Who knows what the request sheet says.

 

I have learned some valuable backup information from this though. They talk about "clients" in the plural so imply they have contracts with each individual trader on the estate where they operate. However, not all traders have their signs up so they would have to prove my car was parked in a space where they have a sign. The other interesting thing is they waited 9 days to write to DVLA for this information. Was this to accumulate a whole list of victims and put all their registrations on one request sheet? Would that explain the multiple clients?

 

Third letter was from my MP. He had passed my issue on to the DoT and sent me a copy of the reply from them. It is the same standard waffle that the DVLA gave me, but he has asked me to contact him if he can be of any further service. I've got much more information about the whole thing than when I first wrote to him, so I will be writing again.

 

I'll post again when I know more but if anyone knows what one of these request sheets looks like please post a picture.

 

B2B

[popsy]

hi an update again..very interesting reading above though! they have sent a final letter from commercial collection servies saying that if i dont pay £40 within 48hrs will be added and a county court thingybob will be issued...what shall i do??? I realise its good to fight but i have very little money and i dont want the costs to rise and rise...thnx

[rogerebaker]

Popsy

 

I know that its a worry that things will get out of hand but its like the bank charges you have got to hold your nerve.

 

write something like

 

Dear xxxxxxx

 

For the avoidance of any doubt,

 

I will not be paying the charge you have imposed and I look forward to dealing with the matter in a count court.

 

I will not reply to any further correspondance from you

 

yours

 

popsy

 

EDIT

[demon_x_slash]

A county court summons or a county court judgement? They can't get the latter without the former, and the former is just like any other day in court - they put their side, you put yours.

[PhantomReclaimer]

hi an update again..very interesting reading above though! they have sent a final letter from commercial collection servies saying that if i dont pay £40 within 48hrs will be added and a county court thingybob will be issued...what shall i do??? I realise its good to fight but i have very little money and i dont want the costs to rise and rise...thnx

 

They aren't going to go to Court because their charge is unenforcible. Making a threat of legal action when legal action clearly won't follow is actually a specific offence of harassement. You could point that out to the debt collection company.

 

P.