ESA standing and sitting

[suziebear67]

Hi had ESA tribunal on friday the panel consisted of a lady laywer and a male doctor.

 

When discussing the standing and sitting the lady said I couldnt recieve any points in standing/sitting section if I can sit for an hour although I cant stand for half an hour, but the wording on the descriptors says none of the above apply to score zero.

 

Cannot, for the majority of the time, remain at a work station, either: (i) standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around) or; (ii) sitting (even in an adjustable chair); or

(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii), for more than 30 minutes, before needing to move away in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion. 9 points.

 

(d) None of the above apply. 0 points

 

Also I claimed JSA in DEC/JAN then claimed ESA from FEB onwards all contribution based can I now claim JSA again when my appeal fails which is what I expect to happen.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

[Helen2264]

When you went for your ESA Medical you would have been watched closely by the close circuit cameras, they'll be taking on board the length of time you've stay seated, if you got up and walked about and how long you've done that too and also during the medical they would have looked closely how you've sat on the chair whether you were holding the armrests or on your sides for support, if you've just sat without holding or put your hands both sides for support they would have taken notes of it. ATOS watch closely all the times what people do from when you arrive at your medical until you leave, also about doors if you've managed to push the heavy doors to get into the medical room it's there for a purpose especially when people say they cannot lift a carton of milk, please not that I am saying you've told them about can't lift carton milk just giving tips to everyone what happen when you enter an ATOS Medical centre.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi had ESA tribunal on friday the panel consisted of a lady laywer and a male doctor.

 

When discussing the standing and sitting the lady said I couldnt recieve any points in standing/sitting section if I can sit for an hour although I cant stand for half an hour, but the wording on the descriptors says none of the above apply to score zero.

 

Cannot, for the majority of the time, remain at a work station, either: (i) standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around) or; (ii) sitting (even in an adjustable chair); or

(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii), for more than 30 minutes, before needing to move away in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion. 9 points.

 

(d) None of the above apply. 0 points

 

Also I claimed JSA in DEC/JAN then claimed ESA from FEB onwards all contribution based can I now claim JSA again when my appeal fails which is what I expect to happen.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

[suziebear67]

Hi I have no problems with sitting for an hour but cannot stand for very long think you have misunderstood what I was asking

[antone]

You can claim JSA, yes. Or, if more than six months have passed since the DWP made the decision to deny you ESA, you can make a new ESA claim.

[Helen2264]

Sorry Suziebear67 I think I have but I thought I let people be aware of how ATOS Centres operate by watching closely of what people do when they arrive at the centres.

 

Hi I have no problems with sitting for an hour but cannot stand for very long think you have misunderstood what I was asking

[Nystagmite]

You can claim JSA, yes. Or, if more than six months have passed since the DWP made the decision to deny you ESA, you can make a new ESA claim.

 

If your condition has changed, the 6 months don't apply.

[**Margaret**]

:suziebear67:

 

The March 11 descriptors for sitting and standing (not applicable to a February 13 claim) were open to different interpretations cos of ambiguous wording. Come 24 September 12, a test case went through an upper tribunal hearing to clarify the issue; whether the test is of ability to remain at a workstation by either sitting, or standing, or a combination of both. The outcome was that, in accordance with Government declared policy intent, the test is of ability to remain at a workstation for 30/60 minutes by sitting, standing, or a combination of both. Even with modern sit/stand desks, I've yet to work out how much work can be done by someone doing a fair imitation of a yo-yo.

 

http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=3561

 

Consequently, the wording for the sitting and standing descriptors was amended from January 13, without any concessions for waiting at a bus stop or having to stand on a train.

 

, Margaret.

Edited October 27, 2013 by **Margaret**

[suziebear67]

Hi thanks all for your replies so am I looking at the old descriptors then or they could do with changing the wording.

 

The medical and refusal for benefit was 25th april 13.

The appeal was 25th October 13.

 

Cant see many employers wanting yoyos to work for them, have applied for 4 jobs whilst on ESA that I was more than qualified for the first 3 I was told there were other people more qualified than myself (was told this after had filled in the reasonable adjustment section) the 4th job had no problems with me not being able to stand long, great I thought, but after I had been working 4 hours they said they needed someone who could stand as well as sit.

 

Really i should have been the ideal candidate for the work group -short term sick- retraining and help finding job- back to join the workforce.

 

ps starryeyes that link describes my situation exactly.

[**Margaret**]

:suziebear67:

 

Government's already changed the descriptors (from January 13) in the wake of that upper tribunal decision. According to the letter of the law, the judge's comments about your ability to remain at a workstation were correct, cos first tier tribunals have to follow the interpretations of previous upper tier tribunals.

 

For comparative purposes;

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/228/made

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3096/made

(amendment of Schedule 2)

 

From what you've written, I'm guessing something's happened to significantly impair your ability to stand and mobilise. Despite Government rhetoric, for most claimants, there's little if any retraining or support. Should you decide to claim jobseekers, ask to see a disability employment adviser. You may be able to negotiate reduced conditionality for a claimant commitment/jobseekers agreement.

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

[45002]

When you went for your ESA Medical you would have been watched closely by the close circuit cameras

 

Have you any actual evidence at all this happens ?

Edited October 27, 2013 by 45002

[Nystagmite]

I've heard they watch you from when you get out the car (or however you get there) and come into the building.

[estellyn]

I've heard they watch you from when you get out the car (or however you get there) and come into the building.

 

The Tribunal judges also used to do this at our local hearing venue - they had windows looking out to the front of the building, and caught out quite a few people who came rushing into the building, and then once in front of the judge would be hobbling about and making 'groaning' noises.

[Helen2264]

Yes I have and found out the reception write notes and pass it on to the doctors that would give you the medical before you go in the medical room that's why there are always waiting time!

 

 

Have you any actual evidence at all this happens ?

[Helen2264]

Exactly the cameras are not there for no reasons, also they watch for your facial expressions when they talk to you to seed if you smile or you smile at other people in the waiting room!

 

 

I've heard they watch you from when you get out the car (or however you get there) and come into the building.

[45002]

Yes I have and found out the reception write notes and pass it on to the doctors that would give you the medical before you go in the medical room that's why there are always waiting time!

 

Perhaps they doing this then to catch people out who are playing the system !

[**Margaret**]

:People Watching:

 

Did I mention that one of our local (purpose built) Tatos centres has one way glass in the wall between the office and the waiting area?

 

Or that a pinocchio working in another local office explained a time discrepancy on an IB85 with 'I had to wait for the security video'.

 

None of which should concern a genuine claimant, except for perhaps making them feel a little uncomfortable at being watched. Allegations of cameras in bathrooms and assessment rooms? I've no idea.

 

Most Tatos assessment rooms are fitted with panic buttons.

 

Margaret.

Edited October 28, 2013 by **Margaret**

[estellyn]

Pretty typical that they put in 'security cameras' for their benefit, but no recording equipment in the interview room for the claimant's benefit

[suziebear67]

Hi margaret thx for your comments I had very bad break and dislocation in my ankle in 93 which took around 3 years to get to near normal, fast forward to 2012 constant pain cramps and stiffness so feb 2013 had plate removed now struggling to walk and stand. I shall ask for the disability advisor and see what they can do for me hopefully, I can find some thing paid or unpaid soon.

 

So due to all you people putting in fake claims i now have to suffer, anyone bothered about the dwp watching them must have lied about their illness or disability, as far as im concerned they can come spend day with me anytime. Its about time the benefit awarded was relevant to the amount paid into the system why should i recieve the same amount of JSA as someone who has never worked at all.

 

Rant over.

 

This is the view from all bears in the house

[estellyn]

Hi margaret thx for your comments I had very bad break and dislocation in my ankle in 93 which took around 3 years to get to near normal, fast forward to 2012 constant pain cramps and stiffness so feb 2013 had plate removed now struggling to walk and stand. I shall ask for the disability advisor and see what they can do for me hopefully, I can find some thing paid or unpaid soon.

 

So due to all you people putting in fake claims i now have to suffer, anyone bothered about the dwp watching them must have lied about their illness or disability, as far as im concerned they can come spend day with me anytime. Its about time the benefit awarded was relevant to the amount paid into the system why should i recieve the same amount of JSA as someone who has never worked at all.

 

Rant over.

 

This is the view from all bears in the house

 

What if the person has never been able to work due to (genuine) chronic illness or disability?

[antone]

What if the person has never been able to work due to (genuine) chronic illness or disability?

 

Remember: the only genuine claim is my claim. The rest of you are fraudsters cheating the system.

[estellyn]

Remember: the only genuine claim is my claim. The rest of you are fraudsters cheating the system.

 

Very true, I forgot that, I'll go turn myself in straight away, I don't know what I was thinking.

[sillygirl1]

There used to be a two tier system for payments of benefits but it was overtuned by a Labour government for being unfair on people who had never worked and were not likely to work - so of course it was hijacked from the beginning!

 

I have days when I can't stretch my right arm out, or walk without considerable pain down my right side, and am on a waiting list for a CT guided root nerve block, but will that make a difference to the assessment people - I don't know. I have filled in the form and sent it back and am awaiting the result.

 

I seriously would like to get hold of some of the people they use for these Atos assessments and find out exactly what 'professional' qualifications they really do have. I have a 'professional' qualification as a medical secretary so would I be deemed 'qualified enough' to become an Atos assessor?

[mr_mastiff]

There used to be a two tier system for payments of benefits but it was overtuned by a Labour government for being unfair on people who had never worked and were not likely to work - so of course it was hijacked from the beginning!

 

I have days when I can't stretch my right arm out, or walk without considerable pain down my right side, and am on a waiting list for a CT guided root nerve block, but will that make a difference to the assessment people - I don't know. I have filled in the form and sent it back and am awaiting the result.

 

I seriously would like to get hold of some of the people they use for these Atos assessments and find out exactly what 'professional' qualifications they really do have. I have a 'professional' qualification as a medical secretary so would I be deemed 'qualified enough' to become an Atos assessor?

 

No you would probably do too good a job! Also you would understand the medical terminology, unlike ATOS who have not got past the "Peter as a poorly finger and it hurts" stage in their development.

[Nystagmite]

Hi margaret thx for your comments I had very bad break and dislocation in my ankle in 93 which took around 3 years to get to near normal, fast forward to 2012 constant pain cramps and stiffness so feb 2013 had plate removed now struggling to walk and stand. I shall ask for the disability advisor and see what they can do for me hopefully, I can find some thing paid or unpaid soon.

 

So due to all you people putting in fake claims i now have to suffer, anyone bothered about the dwp watching them must have lied about their illness or disability, as far as im concerned they can come spend day with me anytime. Its about time the benefit awarded was relevant to the amount paid into the system why should i recieve the same amount of JSA as someone who has never worked at all.

 

Rant over.

 

This is the view from all bears in the house

 

Some of us have good reasons to have never worked.

[**Margaret**]

:suziebear67:

 

Guess you needed some points for standing to reach the 15 point threshold for an award of benefit. As already stated you'll be able to claim jobseekers. Or if you can't cope with jobseekers, and your doctor's prepared to continue writing Med 3 (unfit) notes, have another turn on the misery-go-round.

 

The 'fairness' of benefits is an extremely complex political issue but as a very general rule people who've paid in to the system tend to have higher incomes than claimants who've never worked. Which is a bit hard (and harsher following recent reforms) on young people who're disabled from birth. Lots of opinions, but no easy answers.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide, Margaret.