Lloyds/SCM Claimform - old Loan **sorted out by way of consent order **

[marylikes]

I know, right? It's almost as though practising law required expertise, skills and experience that only a few people actually possess. At the end of the day you must have known that you were not going to get the best legal advice from a public forum run by volunteers who are not supervised by lawyers. You are and always were at liberty to actually pay for legal advice elsewhere.

 

This does raise an interesting and, frankly, vital question which people like andyorch really need to address; at what point are some people on the forum practising law without being insured, regulated or accountable for their mistakes?

 

I'm well aware of what you point out. I'm probably frustrated at lack of any other input rather than frustrated at anyones input. I'm happy i've found here and the advice has guided me so far to be clear of a CCJ, because without reading here i'd of rambled off a letter to the courts in response to my particulars of claim and had a CCJ issued probably automatically So even on that point here has gave me a fighting chance, at least to understand the issues. Also i'd be happy if someone said you havn't a chance based on what you said, just save yourself costs and let them get a CCJ on you. No one seems to give any feedback?

What if i get a CCJ (i'm sure i asked that before here on this thread ), what will happen? I've still no idea. I could be fretting over something thats no big deal, they tell me to pay x amount of my income. What was i worrying about.

[marylikes]

Do you think they have taken it then?

I don't know yet.(assuming you mean mediation). Seeing as the claimant has never conversed with me in over 2 years i'd assume they just want to enforce the full amount no matter what, thats my view on it. And based on the correspondance they'll be happy with some sort of "order". Its my job to make sure they're entitled(or not) to that hardline approach.

[Guest Angel235]

Motoring charges and civil litigation I'm pretty sure completely different

[marylikes]

Motoring charges and civil litigation I'm pretty sure completely different

Well yeah. But the public speaking bit in front of people who are supposed to know more than you is a common denomonator. I've also had one shot at a county court before and the judge asked us to file a directions questionare, and both parties had to stand up and say we've already done that. With hindsight i now know the judge didn't have a clue as to why we where there. How could he given what he said, but we had a full trial. So i'm a little bit wiser about having to speak up.

Edited November 19, 2013 by marylikes

[ims21]

I know, right? It's almost as though practising law required expertise, skills and experience that only a few people actually possess. At the end of the day you must have known that you were not going to get the best legal advice from a public forum run by volunteers who are not supervised by lawyers. You are and always were at liberty to actually pay for legal advice elsewhere.

 

This does raise an interesting and, frankly,at what point are some people on the forum practising law without being insured, regulated or accountable for their mistakes?

 

 

You may like to read the Site Rules which you agreed to when you signed up for your account. They answer this question perfectly clearly.

 

At the time of writing this post you have not read them. They can be found here...

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9-Forum-rules.-Please-read-these-before-posting

[AndyOrch]

Irrelevant posts removed and thread tidied

[Ganymede]

This does raise an interesting and, frankly, at what point are some people on the forum practising law without being insured, regulated or accountable for their mistakes?

 

 

 

I've had that concern once or twice when I've seen people being swept along by others claiming to be regulated, qualified legal professionals (when actually they aren't) but ultimately responsibility lies with the person seeking advice to check what they are being told and to consult a fully insured solicitor if possible.

[mjt2013]

I've had that concern once or twice when I've seen people being swept along by others claiming to be regulated, qualified legal professionals (when actually they aren't) but ultimately responsibility lies with the person seeking advice to check what they are being told and to consult a fully insured solicitor if possible.

 

Yes, I think that is probably the right balance although I do worry how the same caveat emptor logic could be applied to any physical office trying to offer legal advice without being regulated. However, it seems as though this is not a discussion which is not permitted here!

[steampowered]

If i'd of stuck to the info in the sticky i'd of asked for the claim to be struck out if they didn't comply. Based on you saying they may send a barrister to resist such an action i never followed through with my request. Bad move on my part.

Mary, you are speculating here. Don't let your brain trick you into convincing yourself that the claim would have been struck out if only you did things differently. You don't know what would have happened.

 

Try doing your own research and check for yourself how many cases have been struck out for non-compliance with CPR 31.14. It is not the kind of thing that merits a strike-out. The more likely result is that the application would have been rejected with you ordered to pay costs. At most you might have got an order that they comply with a certain timeframe but this is of little practical value since they will need to disclose the documents before they get to the hearing anyway.

 

You say that 'in your opinion' they would not have sent a barrister but there is no basis for this opinion. Banks and DCAs can and do send barristers to oppose strike-out applications. There are several examples of this on CAG.

 

 

I've submitted a defence, one i now know i needn't have done. Even on the flip side, even if they had all the docs then they wouldnt of sent a barrister (in my opinion) they'd of just complied or been struck out. Well what if they did indeed have them? Then they'd of complied.

Untrue. Just because you have filed a strike-out application does not mean you get more time to file your Defence.

Luckily for me my defence leaves a lot of doors open to me and there are still other avenues open to me for them to produce the particulars of claim. I think your advice Andy was bad. It goes against the advice in the sticky too.And seeing as you are respected here as a legal guru and you advise different it leaves posters in a quandry, (or at least me).

 

What exact part of what sticky are you claiming is incorrect? I am not sure what you are referring to. Please be clear so that anything in the sticky which is misleading can be updated.

 

I know you are desperate to deal with this quickly but just be patient. If there are problems with the documentation, and you wish to use those to defend the claim, then the appropriate time and place to deal with that is at the hearing. The Particulars of Claim and Defence are only the start of the court process.

 

As they have offered to settle the litigation by a consent order, it might be sensible to provide an income and expenditure statement and make an offer, as offering monthly payments would avoid a CCJ ... you will have to make your own judgment about whether you have enough to convince a judge you are not legally obliged to repay this loan at the hearing.

[MandM]

And based on the correspondance they'll be happy with some sort of "order". Its my job to make sure they're entitled(or not) to that hardline approach.

 

Hi Mary,

 

I don't agree with you in that they are taking a "hardline approach". They have already offered to settle by way of a consent order and my view is that this is anything but hardline. This is a 2010 loan (online I think you said) so it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to make any case due to unenforceablity of the agreement. The DN is only a minor point also IMO. So unsure how or what you are going to defend.

 

You asked earlier in the thread what would be the likely outcome if you lost this. Well, they'll be awarded the full amount plus some costs, you'll probably be given the month to pay it then you'll likely ask/apply for a variation, submit an I&E to the court stating what you can afford per month, and there's a high likelihood that it will be accepted by the court. End of! Well, almost.

 

If you own your property they will likely apply for a CO to protect their cash and there's a good chance they'll get it.

 

The alternative IF you think you cannot win this is to take them up on their offer to go the consent/Tomlin route. It doesn't stop you from negotiating the amount outstanding, and it doesn't mean having to agree to a level of monthly repayment that you cannot afford. It does stop you from getting a CCJ though!

 

The simple way to do this is to make contact (by e-mail). Head it 'without prejudice, save as to costs'. The information divulged in your e-mail cannot be used against you throughout the case, but if your negotiations do fail then this correspondance can be produced and considered when it comes to the matter of awarding costs when the case is concluded. Costs shouldn't be too much of an issue as costs are limited in the SCT. You do not have to wait for the mediation process to kick in. You can negotiate from now and right up until the point that you reach the door of the court pretty much.

 

If you were to start the ball rolling along the lines of "Your claim is for X amount, however you have not considered Y which should reduce your claim to Z" this could take into account whatever figure/reasons you feel you are paying too much. (your counter claim).

 

With regards to the level of monthly payment you offer I think you would be surprised at how low a monthly amount some of these companies will accept in order to settle. I'm pretty sure (without looking back) that you said they had sent you an I&E, but if you're not happy with theirs (too little detail etc) then use the one that the courts use. The advantage is that you have shown your hand on what you can pay per month and when you ask for time to pay (assuming you proceed to court and lose) it's likely that's what the court will use to establish your level of repayment. So, even if the negotiations go belly up there's nothing lost apart from getting a CCJ (and a possible CO looming if this applies). IF they accept now then you'll avoid the CCJ/CO provided you maintain the repayments.

 

When you do your I&E don't think of it in terms of 'what if I do it over 5 years or 10 years'. Your I&E should be based only on what you can afford per month. So if that means they'll be getting a small amount for the next 30 years then so be it. The trick is never to fail on the repayments detailed on the schedule that you agree with them. Or they will then go back to court and judgement will be given. So by default you will be accepting that the agreed amount is due by agreeing to the consent order. End of. You cannot argue this again later.

 

I'm not suggesting that you do any of the above, simply answering your question of "what happens next" which you seem to have asked a few times so hopefully this gives you a clue.

 

I have been to court and won, I've also been to court and lost, I've also used the above route and when it's all done and dusted it certainly feels like a win. Probably because I've avoided the stress and worry that comes with having to go to court . Final choice is yours to make but the only advice I would give you is that if you feel in your heart of hearts that losing is a likely scenario then try and adapt the above route as a means of escape which still leaves you in control.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike.

[marylikes]

What exact part of what sticky are you claiming is incorrect? I am not sure what you are referring to. Please be clear so that anything in the sticky which is misleading can be updated.

The sticky at the top of this forum CPR31.14 getting them to reveal their vitals. I 'm sure it doesn't say anywhere on it that the action can be resisted it will leave you with more costs if it is resisted etc. Also apparently some of the usual docs requested (DN/FD) don't have to be kept anyway. Just seems a waste if current advice is not to hold out for this route?

[marylikes]

Hi Mary,

 

I don't agree with you in that they are taking a "hardline approach". They have already offered to settle by way of a consent order and my view is that this is anything but hardline. This is a 2010 loan (online I think you said) so it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to make any case due to unenforceablity of the agreement. The DN is only a minor point also IMO. So unsure how or what you are going to defend.

 

You asked earlier in the thread what would be the likely outcome if you lost this. Well, they'll be awarded the full amount plus some costs, you'll probably be given the month to pay it then you'll likely ask/apply for a variation, submit an I&E to the court stating what you can afford per month, and there's a high likelihood that it will be accepted by the court. End of! Well, almost.

 

If you own your property they will likely apply for a CO to protect their cash and there's a good chance they'll get it.

 

The alternative IF you think you cannot win this is to take them up on their offer to go the consent/Tomlin route. It doesn't stop you from negotiating the amount outstanding, and it doesn't mean having to agree to a level of monthly repayment that you cannot afford. It does stop you from getting a CCJ though!

 

The simple way to do this is to make contact (by e-mail). Head it 'without prejudice, save as to costs'. The information divulged in your e-mail cannot be used against you throughout the case, but if your negotiations do fail then this correspondance can be produced and considered when it comes to the matter of awarding costs when the case is concluded. Costs shouldn't be too much of an issue as costs are limited in the SCT. You do not have to wait for the mediation process to kick in. You can negotiate from now and right up until the point that you reach the door of the court pretty much.

 

If you were to start the ball rolling along the lines of "Your claim is for X amount, however you have not considered Y which should reduce your claim to Z" this could take into account whatever figure/reasons you feel you are paying too much. (your counter claim).

 

With regards to the level of monthly payment you offer I think you would be surprised at how low a monthly amount some of these companies will accept in order to settle. I'm pretty sure (without looking back) that you said they had sent you an I&E, but if you're not happy with theirs (too little detail etc) then use the one that the courts use. The advantage is that you have shown your hand on what you can pay per month and when you ask for time to pay (assuming you proceed to court and lose) it's likely that's what the court will use to establish your level of repayment. So, even if the negotiations go belly up there's nothing lost apart from getting a CCJ (and a possible CO looming if this applies). IF they accept now then you'll avoid the CCJ/CO provided you maintain the repayments.

 

When you do your I&E don't think of it in terms of 'what if I do it over 5 years or 10 years'. Your I&E should be based only on what you can afford per month. So if that means they'll be getting a small amount for the next 30 years then so be it. The trick is never to fail on the repayments detailed on the schedule that you agree with them. Or they will then go back to court and judgement will be given. So by default you will be accepting that the agreed amount is due by agreeing to the consent order. End of. You cannot argue this again later.

 

I'm not suggesting that you do any of the above, simply answering your question of "what happens next" which you seem to have asked a few times so hopefully this gives you a clue.

 

I have been to court and won, I've also been to court and lost, I've also used the above route and when it's all done and dusted it certainly feels like a win. Probably because I've avoided the stress and worry that comes with having to go to court . Final choice is yours to make but the only advice I would give you is that if you feel in your heart of hearts that losing is a likely scenario then try and adapt the above route as a means of escape which still leaves you in control.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike.

 

Thats helpful for me many thanks. A bit of good news for me i think, i have recieved letter from Sols todays. They're happy to agree with the counterclaim and that will reduce my outstanding amount by roughly £500. I let them know what Stepchange advised me and they now want my actual IE form, so i'll get it printed off and sent to them now.

Many thanks again.

[steampowered]

The sticky at the top of this forum CPR31.14 getting them to reveal their vitals. I 'm sure it doesn't say anywhere on it that the action can be resisted it will leave you with more costs if it is resisted etc. Also apparently some of the usual docs requested (DN/FD) don't have to be kept anyway. Just seems a waste if current advice is not to hold out for this route?

 

I see where you are coming from. There are two separate issues here: (1) what CPR 31.14 says they must do and (2) how you enforce non-compliance. I think the advice given both in the sticky and in this thread is consistent, since the sticky only covers item (1) and you were advised on item (2).

 

It is still sensible to make CPR 31.14 requests and use them to your advantage. The problem is what to do if they don't comply ... since there are no automatic consequences for non-compliance and it doesn't lead to strike out. The reality is that if they do not want to comply with CPR 31.14 in practice it is very difficult to force them. This is a problem with the law and not something CAG can sort. I'll have a think about expanding the sticky to cover item (2) as well.

[Guest Angel235]

So that's good news!! So that means you won your counterclaim?

[marylikes]

Hi Angel, i'm not sure on the jargon but my understanding is i havn't won anything they have just agreed and settled the matter. They will bring the matter to a close etc... they have also filed same letter to the court. I just now have to forward a proposal along with my IE.

 

Anyone any ideas for a proposal for 5.5 k and a budget of £35 a month ? How you word it etc, what you'd ask?

[Guest Angel235]

Maybe just that I propose £35 a month... Also make sure your I&E reflects that

[Guest Angel235]

Hey!! any updates?

[marylikes]

To sum it up quickly, i've had notification that the case has been transferred to my local court. I still havn't sent them my IE, i will on Monday. I've identified that my agreement is improperley executed (i.e does not contain all the terms and conditions), i realise a court can still order on it so i'm not sure how that leaves me. Probably no better off !!! Sticking point might be proof of postage of my DN. I'm still not sure if any of that means i can get a better deal. I.E i can't afford any full and final payment and could only pay on installments . I'll probably just lay my cards on the table with them and see where we go. I don't think i've anything to lose either way, i've already come to the conclusion that no matter what costs i may or may not get awarded against me if it goes ahead then i still can't pay them anyway. Either way i'll be in debt, less debt or more debt!!

[Guest Angel235]

Fair one!

 

So I take it you will send an offer as well then?

[marylikes]

Yeah i will, but i think they mentioned a "consent order", so i just need to check the implications of that. There are other routes we could take like a Tomlin order? Maybe an outright time order ? I think i'm going to ask them for options as they are used to dealing with this stuff and i'm not. So if there's something i don't like then i'll say.

[Guest Angel235]

Are you not scared they might just withdraw all and go to trial coz your asking lots of questions?

[marylikes]

Are you not scared they might just withdraw all and go to trial coz your asking lots of questions?

 

To be 100% honest with you i've lost that much sleep worrying about it, reading what i can do or not do about it, how to help myself etc.. I'm rapidly developing the "what will be will be" attitude. In reality no one from Lloyds or SCM is gonna burst through my front door with a gun and shoot me, so in the scheme of things it won't matter to me what any paperwork says, £500, £5,000 , £50,000 , £500,000 . I'm coming to terms with the fact its a frame of mind, or to coin a phrase..."its all in your own head".

[Guest Angel235]

That's a really good attitude to have, it's a shame we all can't have the same

[marylikes]

A bit of good news for me i think, i have recieved letter from Sols todays. They're happy to agree with the counterclaim and that will reduce my outstanding amount by roughly £500. I let them know what Stepchange advised me and they now want my actual IE form, so i'll get it printed off and sent to them now.

Many thanks again.

 

I'm a bit confused again now. I recieved a date for hearing (March 2014) along with some orders/instructions from my local court. We're to try negotiate, try mediation etc.

Claimant has to provide breakdown of amount claimed for (due in about a weeks time).

There is no mention of the counterclaim, not sure if this is usual?

 

What i'm confused about is that i have just recieved a letter of assignment from firstcredit for my current account, they want to collect the outstanding balance. I thought this had been settled via my counterclaim. Firstcredit have also checked my credit file prior to notifying me of this assignment.

The sols did say when they agreed the counterclaim that in order to close the matter they would refund the amount which was made up of unplanned charges and interest and it would leave me a balance to knock off the loan they are claiming for, and they produced a reduced figure for the loan.

 

Do i need to speak to the court to find out the status of my counterclaim, if so which court my local one or CBBC ? Sols did say they would forward the letter they sent me to the court.

 

I've asked firstcredit to confirm this is a live account and for them to check that there is no mistake?

 

Anything else i should be doing?

[Guest Angel235]

They would have just reduced the balance from the claim outstanding! You still need to pay the rest?

 

So if you haven't made any offers they have taken it to court

 

The counterclaim has been agreed so there won't be any mention of it

 

Are you sure that you are getting letter from first credit for the same debt?

 

It may be another one? Check the numbers

 

If you want to go for mediation you need to let the court know otherwise start getting prepared for court in March