Mike, what year did you start this credit card agreement, and did you sign anything or was it an online tick in a box ?

Hi, my wpsatc letter : so i was offered.....we will write off the outstanding balance of the mortgage (approx £1k), remove any legal charge on the property and remove any adverse credit ref (if any) , sign confidentiality agreement. They where willing to do this as i have been a long standing customer who has always maintained my mortgage account and the situation was causing me stress. I told them i was very happy with this, and all we need to deal with now is my refund. I told them i would accept that any payments made from inception of the mortgage until 1993, i would accept where made and received in good faith and i would not look to recover them. I also said i accept that what i borrowed should be paid back to them and to that end all i will seek to recover is the interest payments from 1993 to date. Further...i would not seek compound interest and would accept 8% statutory flat rate. They told me they would seek instructions I left it for a fortnight before getting back to them to see if they had an update. I was ignored a couple of times. Eventually i got a reply. "Your counter offer acts as a rejection of our offer, we are considering it and will respond by close of business 3rd November" That being the" normal 21 day statutory timescale". They never got back to me and have ignored me since. I'm confused if i should make the first move now and initiate Court action or wait for them to try and recover the £1k mortgage balance. End date for the mortgage is the 23rd of this month ? All they have done really is offer me what they could not achieve in a Court, i.e nothing. Any words of wisdom from the collective, anything i need to be aware of, i'd be grateful for any advice please?

Hi, no claim has been filed from either side yet but i now have a Calderbank offer. It offers to do what i asked for but omits any refund. Is the offer a genuine offer if it doesn't deal with the whole claim ? I intend to point this out and offer my own settlement terms. Thats as much as i can do? Anything else i may need to be aware of at this stage ?

So this is stll rumbling on. Its their Head of Legal that deals with me, which tells me that either they're in trouble or i am. He doesn't bother corresponding with me. Asked for 3 months, didn't correspond once in that period. After me having a meltdown and contacting again he then tells me that i'm not compelled to make a claim and CPR allows parties to continue further discussion. I've recieved nothing, despite several contacts with them and over another month go by. Told him i'm going to report him to the SRA for misleading me and stringing me on. They had no intention of discussing anything with me. Took a while to get this, apparently there was an "error" in publishing it. Its self explanatory really. https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4008803.pdf I'm still getting a monthly letter to say i owe a payment, and if i don't pay they will consider legal action.. contact them if i need assistance etc. So i contacted them. My arrears are currently £499, and the outstanding balance is a few quid under a grand. The mortgage date to finish is the end of November this year. I asked them to litigate as i have no intention of paying, or do they want me to start the litigation process ? They have told me that as i am "under the threshold for litigation" they are not going to litigate. I will still recieve letters for what i owe and they will not remove the charge on my property until the outstanding balance is paid. There is no mark on my credit file and there will not be one as they say, because my agreement started in 1989. Not sure where this all leaves me, but someone is now looking into it and will get back to me tomorrow. I've asked them for any way forward to resolve this. Wether thats some sort of settlement or i have to go off to Court, which i've tried every avenue i can think of to hold off doing. I'm unsure of what the tactic of trying to delay matters achieves. Bringing an unfair relationship claim is good for up to six years from the end of the relationship, so its left me confused a bit. Unless they just hope i'll get bored and leave it ? I can fully understand why they will not bring a claim against me for money, but i thought protocol meant they had to if i owed it, or they claimed i owed it ?

It will be a brave brief that would stand in a Court and tell them a Regulated agreement is now changed to an unregulated one. Its complete nonsense. Its not possible. If that was the case, any unscrupulous lender could say any regulated agreement is now unregulated. Consumer protection laws specifically prevent this. S173 CCA . This is a firm, that has for the last two years told me "mortgages are not credit agreements", "we do not hold an agreement as its not a Consumer Credit Agreement" . I have all this in black and white from them. So this sudden change of tack is, as they say, suprising.

Hi @Andyorch , yes i have thanks. Mortgage lending has been regulated by the Mortgage Credit Directive and others since about October 2004 . However, thats not retrospective, and all the protections and provisions still apply to the agreement. These old agreements are known and defined by the FCA as "legacy cca" mortgages. Basically some stuff by virtue of new legislation just no longer applies moving foreward. For example, if i was to alter my mortgage in some way, maybe get a small top up or whatever then S82 CCA, would no longer be applicable, as it would be an agreement that is secured on land, and that is a Regulated Mortgage Contract, that also brings about affordability tests etc.. Non of this previously applied to Consumer Credit Agreements. But will do now if such an adjustment is made. Specifically it is the "lending" that is no longer a Consumer Credit activity. Also the Regulated Activities Order makes it possible for any firms "administering" these CCA mortgages to administer them with the same permissions for Regulated Mortgages so they do not have to be specifically Consumer Credit licensed. Effectivley bringing everything under the one umbrella. The need to be able to hold a properly executed agreement etc.. still holds good. Which is why they are strenuously denying holding an improperly executed agreement, despite never producing one, and originally telling me my agreement had never been a Consumer Credit agreement. They have taken issue with me not pleading S77/S77A fails in my original claim, so i guess they will try to get me dismissed if i raise it as an issue. Despite the fact i've been through their complaints procedure, FOS and told them its an issue in later correspondance. I'll probably stick with the "non was ever complied with" (CCA), that should cover the lot? It would seem a waste of time to point out failings in the Credit Agreement Regulations for example, when we do not have an actual credit agreement. In the 34 years worth of paperwork i hold, the Consumer Credit Act is mentioned once. And that is in my completion letter which says......."you are now due to make a payment of £29 to cover interest for the rest of the year in order for us to quote an exact term as per the consumer credit act" . In actual fact it was the Consumer Credit (Quotations) Act that required it. Never the less, there is not one single thing they have done ever to comply with Consumer Credit Act, in any shape or form. I'm probably in for a right ride !!

Just mulling over some more of it : I've literally took my complaints about this to the FOS, who declined them as they said my agreement was NOT a regulated agreement. Its obvious to me they will try to methodically pick through each separate CCA breach and counter them on each point, or rather pick me up for not pleading the specific breach. I think they may have inadvertently made my claim actually easier, but i would like to run it by the collective here first for any thoughts. Initially i was minded to list out and plead each individual breach, i.e : Failure to comply with S61 (CCA), failure to comply with S60(CCA) and so on and so forth. In actual fact, its like i said in my claim, they have complied with nothing, zilch. They have treated my loan from the get go as an unregulated loan. So it may be easier for me to plead a "complete failure to comply with any aspect of the CCA" , would that work ? They have not addressed my S140 Unfair Relationship claim either, as them pleadings just lead to it anyway.

Hi again. I've managed to work out restitutionary damages myself, so i think i'm ok on that score. Reason for my post now is i have just recieved my lenders response to my claim (yes, at this hour of night). I'll not go over it all as i still need to digest it, but in brief i have this snippet : "Improperly executed credit agreement You believe that the Mortgage is regulated by the CCA and that Santander UK has acted in breach of the CCA in the manner in which it has administered the Mortgage. The Mortgage was CCA regulated when it was taken out in January 1989. The Mortgage is no longer CCA regulated. You allege that the Mortgage agreement is an improperly executed agreement. However, you make no attempt to explain why you believe that to be the case. It follows that Santander UK is unable to respond to this allegation with anything other than a bare rebuttal. Santander UK disputes that the Mortgage agreement was improperly executed in accordance with the CCA" Of course it should go without saying that my S77 request had it been complied with would of dismissed my allegations. I actually did tell them in my claim why i believed it to be the case: "The legal basis for my claim is as follows: (i) The Consumer Credit Act 1974 laid out the requirements and regulations for our agreement . None was ever complied with. And most importantly for me I was denied any knowledge of my rights or remedies. Our agreement which began 23 rd January 1989 is in short an improperly executed agreement." I'll mull over the rest of it.

Hi again, not long to go for me now and it very much looks like they are going to force me to put my money where my mouth is. I've sorted out my "brief particulars of claim", i'm aware of what i need to include in my pleadings, or particulars of claim. So on that score i'm quite happy i know what i'm doing. The situation remains the same for me as regards i still have no response to any letter, email , nor the phone calls i have made, and they have all my contact details and i have asked them to get in touch. They havn't. I've now confirmed a date to them of the 20th August as the date i will file to Court. So there is no abiguity over how many days or working days etc... this has probably gone on far to long already. So thats where i am at. So, i still have a question. Its not an easy one. I have been able to value my claim, and my claim is a refund of everything i've paid under the agreement..... the nearest correct figure i now can make it is £41,800 approx. Now to give that figure some perspective: i borrowed £13,250 which was 95% of the purchase price of my home, which was £13,950 in 1989. Its a small modest terraced house, its value now is £100K. £41K is 3 x the amount i borrowed. Obviously if my claim fails then i get nothing. If my claim suceeds i guess i need to have plead what i want? So, so far it is the £42k i paid. I worked out in a very simple fashion that if i was repaid each years repayments, on a yearly basis at 8% simple interest basis then it equates to somewhere around £102k . That is in keeping with the value of my home at present. How that figure would change if it was calculated from date of each payment, then i'm not sure. Also should i consider that interest could be repayable at 8% compound interest from date of each payment ? Thats obviously going to be much higher again. Or could i do it a simpler way? I borrowed 95% the value of my home and was made to pay back x3. That value now stands at £100k x3 = £300k ? I realise that calculating restitution is difficult. I did point out to my lender that they should appoint an Actuary at their expense to correctly calculate the compensation needed to restitute to me the £42K i paid them over 34 years. Does anyone have any thoughts of how i should go about this ? I followed the link for Restitutionary damages and it leads to a dead link. I've googled it and its a minefield . Thanks all.

Just an update. My 1st letter of claim was received in May, and responded to, although i didn't receive it they let me know by email they had. I had the head of Legal Dept contact me. He told me "parties to potential litigation have 3 months to respond under CPR rules" ........., although he would hope to be in a position to respond much sooner. Its been two months now i've had no response so far . In the meantime Mortgage Prisoner Group have been in to discuss my case (i don't yet know the outcome) . I've also had a letter asking me for a payment and threatening a £40 late fee, and a potential Field visit for about £185. I asked them what they are playing at, it was them that wanted more time, not me. They, as i'm used to now do not acknowledge much correspondence but i've no further demand for payment and no mention of late fees and no more demand for payment. In fact i've only ever had one letter asking for a payment, i must owe three months by now. Next month should see an offer to settle my claim, or i'll be off to Court. How you going on @figuriti99 ?

Having a right nightmare with sending a LBA. Sent one 15th May, still not delivered, complaint into Royal Mail over that. Got advised to give it ten working days. Sent another two off on the 30th May, to Santander @ Milton Keynes and Santander @ Bridle Road, Bootle . Still nothing. Not a one of them delivered. I'm going to have to contact them , see if they have recieved them and if not i suppose the best thing to do is hand letter into my local branch. Feel a right idiot sending so many LBA's, and now potentially having to send another one. Nuts!!...........

Posted LBA on Monday morning like i said, 1st Class signed for. Still not delivered as of time of posting here. I have tracking number to check it. Looks like i'll have to replicate it all tomorrow and send off again on Monday morning. Just hope nothing crosses over and they end up getting two with different dates.

Here is my S77A complaint decision: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4018247.pdf My S77(1) complaint does not appear to be published and it was found a week earlier. Independant Assesor has awarded me £50. LBA in envelope about to go to post office this morning.

Hi, i'm looking for some advice please. I'm going to fill in a N1 Claim form. I have to use "The Consumer Credit Act procedure" as per CPR 49.C https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part49/practice-direction-49c-consumer-credit-act-2006-unfair-relationships I'm ok with the particulars of claim, they'll pretty much be the same as my pre claim. What i want to know is in the section (on the N1 form) "Brief Details of Claim" , would something like this suffice: "This is a Consumer credit act claim using the CPR 49.c rules relating to: [1] section 65(1) (improperly executed agreement) [2] section 140B(2)(a) (debtor’s or surety’s application for an order relating to an unfair relationship) Then the next space down says: "Value": so i can say.......... I am asking the Court to order: [i] A dismisal of any outstanding amount on the agreement, estimated to be approx. £600 [ii] A removal of any charge on my property [adress..... blah blah] [iii] A refund of all monies paid under the agreement........ £40,200 [iiii] Closure and an end to the agreement. --------------- Then in the box where it says "Amount claimed" do i enter £40,200 , or do i need to enter the £600 too, so it reads £40,800 ? Also i see no where to enter a LIP's costs........ do i do this at a later stage ?

Thanks both of you. That spread sheet has been brilliant for me. I just tweaked it a bit, and i entered in the annual payments i made for each year. There is six years i don't have statements for so i estimated them, in their favour at £1k per year. Sure enough it comes out at £40,200 i've paid, and the interest repayable at 8% simple comes to £59,400 , so a grand total of about £99,500 if it went in my favour. This will go to fast track and be a bit out of my depth i think, so i'm going to draft up a loose pre claim, fire it off and whilst doing that i'm now going to make enquiries to get someone to represent me in Court.

I think they are being pretty disingenuous, when i asked them for a statement of account it was vague. It just said your mortgage started in 1989, you have paid x amount capital and x amount interest , that equated to roughly £34K. What i now can roughly work out is that is only since 1993. I paid £6k during 89/90/91/92 . So the total i have paid so far is actually around £40k plus .

@Andyorch Thanks Andy, i'm even more confused now though. Just to keep the maths simple, if i want to claim back the £34k i paid, i need to work out year by year and add 8% simple interest.? I'm not following the rest of it though for restitution. I'm just totally confused as to what amount i actually ask for ?

Generally as far as i understand if they do not reply, although you can "just not pay them" i would advise telling them you are not paying until they comply with a copy of your agreement. That should put them on hold when they will either supply a copy of your agreement or they won't. Just go from there first.

Start here :

Its ok i spent an afternoon reading old posts here about charges and securities, i'm not going to open that can of worms. I don't need to either i don't think. I'll keep this simple, they still have not contacted me to ask for a payment. I suppose they could just literally sit on their hands and do nothing. So i'll now need to make concrete plans moving forward. I aim to go down the unfair relationship route S140 CCA. No agreement, no modifying agreement, and quite a few other things. Can anyone explain to me in laymans terms what this actually means: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part49/practice-direction-49c-consumer-credit-act-2006-unfair-relationships Aside from needing to state i am using the Consumer Credit procedure what other practical effects are there ? Also Court fee : I've paid approx £34k , thats what i want back. If i want it back with 8% simple interest do i need to calculate that , maybe £80 K and also if i wanted restitutionary damages that would be £34k at 8% compound that could come to £120k? I'd imagine it would need an Actuary to calculate it. If i want the latter do i have to pay a claim for £120k or do i just pay a claim for £34k and let the Court find on it ?

I was going to bang on about the FOS, but i realised this is not the time or place to do it. There is a separate section of the forum for the FOS so i may add to that if i feel. Suffice to say if you look through the trustpilot reviews you'll get a good idea of how the FOS operate. My complaint about the service (not the decision) has been accepted by the IA. I also asked FOS for copy of what Santander have communicated to them about me and my account. Unhelpfully they sent me back all the correspondance i have sent to FOS and nothing from Santander, quoting : Santander have previously told us the following, "Please note that any internal screenshots, policies, or procedures are strictly confidential and must not be passed on to our customers." So, some information is commercially sensitive. My initial reaction was to send a DSAR off to Santander. But i'm not going to do that, i've already done it 18 months ago and have all i need so i'll be wasting my time and theirs looking for more info that i don't probably need. I.e if i havn't got enough already and i've got the law wrong then i'm doomed and no further DSAR is going to pull me out the mud, if i'm in it. I've tried to focus on the positives, and of course its not without worry. I'm of the idea now that the next letter i recieve will be a "Jesus Christ !!" It'll either be an offer to settle or some sort of claim. I'm ten months with no payment to them. I've told them i am not going to pay, even though they have not asked me for a payment. I suppose i'm in a very unusual situation. I'd imagine a lot or most people who go the ..... S77 route for info, or "you didn't comply with the CCA" are in actual fact in arrears and are looking for some sort of challenge to their debt. I've actually been a perfect customer for 34 years and never missed. I can imagine that some would say... why did you not pay it off sooner ? And thats because i've never been asked to or had to and i'm lazy. I just do the minimum i need to do, and of course i could end this tomorrow by paying it all off and i'll be mortgage free. I have the money to do that. I also feel i can help others in the same situation. Worst that can happen ? I'll lose and i'll lose my small terraced house and end up in a council bungalow (i'm over 60). Best outcome ? I'll get my money refunded and it'll make a nice pension pot as it was my money they took. I've some questions about charges and securities, i'll do that tomorrow as its late now and i'm tired.

I asked the FOS to explain to me about the document they host on their own website entitled "future regulatory treatment of 1st charge CCA mortgages" and i got back........... if you need to make a claim against us you need to follow the correct pre claim procedure,... etc and then got given address for service of legal documents/claim etc.. Thats a free and impartial complaint resolution service that offers an alternative to going to court.

Exhausted the Ombudsman complaints process. I'm now going to make complaint to the Independant Assesor. Santander also wrote to me and told me now the FOS process is exhausted they will not entertain any more discussion over any of my complaints. They've still not asked me for a payment yet. FOS has told me the same, no more discussion. Some snippets from my descision: "Our decisions are published, and it’s important that I don’t include any information that might result in Mrs and Mr C being identified. Instead I’ll give a brief summary, and then focus on giving the reasons for my decision. If I don’t mention something, it won’t be because I’ve ignored it. It’ll be because I didn’t think it was material to the outcome of the complaint. Mrs and Mrs C made a subject access request (SAR) of Santander under the General Data Protection Regulation. They’ve raised a separate complaint about how that was handled by Santander and I understand a fellow ombudsman is dealing with that. Following the SAR, Mrs and Mr C brought this complaint." I pointed out that the FOS does not deal with GDPR, and if i had a complaint over a SAR i would go to the ICO, not the FOS..., also i've not had a complaint about any SAR. Fell on deaf ears . "Credit agreements that are regulated under the CCA have a clear narrative on the first page saying just that. Mrs and Mr C’s original mortgage offer from 1988 contains no such narrative, simply because it wasn’t ever a regulated agreement under the CCA. The fact that the starting balance of the mortgage in 1989 was below £15,000 is not a factor in whether it was regulated by the CCA. First charge mortgages are not regarded as consumer credit for the purposes of the CCA, and were never included in its scope. So the question of exemption doesn’t arise; an agreement can’t be exempt from something it was never covered by in the first place. For the avoidance of doubt, regulation of first charge mortgages, like the mortgage Mrs and Mr C have, began in 2004 under MCOB, and applied retrospectively to mortgages already in existence. Nothing I’ve seen in the evidence from either party gives me any reason to find that Mrs and Mr C’s mortgage statements aren’t MCOB-compliant." I've a way to go yet, i reckon this is just the beginning.................

I thought it would be helpful to add what was posted to my profile, to make for an easy read: "I only came across this today. It seems I am in a similar situation to yourself. I took out my mortgage with my husband in 1982. I have been questioning my interest payments and payments for a while now and it was only in 2017 that I was informed my Mortgage with Santander was changed in 1993 and extended from 25 years to 43. I also copies of my account showing I was on interest only for months and capital payments for 201. Paper work is everywhere. I am still trying to get my head round it and I also have a complaint with FOS. I will let you know how I get on. Obviously, Santander didn't get through to all their customers. I am attaching a couple of files for you to look at too. I discovered them when I was searching the internet for any information I could get. The other one is ombudsman news issue 43. ombudsman news issue 35.pdI couldn't add that one as the total size uploaded was too big. "

the above response was not signed or sent to me by a named person. it just signed off "Subject Access Request Team" . What i found unusual is that my request was sent to "Mortgage Operations" and not the SAR team. Also i wouldn't of thought it was within the SAR teams remit to decide who regulated my mortgage? Further, if my mortgage was not regulated by the consumer credit act, what exactly where they searching their systems for ? Also, and its just part of the reason why the Ombudsman will probably not publish my descision is that the Ombudsman has unwittingly referenced this in his descision. He is supposed to be looking at something else. Just how he would know about my S110 request, i've no idea. He was supposed to be seeing if my statements where S77A compliant or not. Its also the same Ombudsman who decided the other ladys complaint about my lender was "historic" and could not be looked into. It appears to me that the Ombudsman does more than just get a file about your complaint, they also seem to be sharing live at the minute info on correspondance that is unconnected to your complaint.