I have today recieved my S110 request, the letter is dated 7th March,2023. It is headed "Data Protection Legislation Consumer Credit Agreement" we've now compiled a search of our systems. We can confirm that this mortgage was not regulated by the Consumer Credit Act and therefore does not have a credit agreement. Thats good, at least we know where we stand. I'm away for the weekend, have a good weekend all. I'll deal with this when i'm back.

HI DX, my profile here. Click on my username and scroll and see what has just been posted to me.

Check out what has just been posted on my profile. I really do think i need to widen the net out further, maybe create some sort of self help advice/ information sharing or whatever. I've been trawling Facebook and some of the things done by my lender are brutal and they'll get no quarter from me. On that note, i'm aware the FOS do trawl social media for anything about them. They tell you this on their website (privacy policy) using Orlo software. My lender probably does similar. To be honest my complaint to them about the service i received from them was absolutely scathing. As they have a legal obligation to publish their decisions i challenged them to publish the decision they sent me. And i'll eat my hat if they do publish it. My case handler usually confirms receipt of my emails, not this time. I'd be pretty certain they have been told not to engage with me any further. What i have found very telling as i've trawled through all the decisions, is that there is non either upheld or dismissed at all about this issue. Actually there might be one, i'll try find it. But anyway, they should be flagging up as an issue for the FOS to alert the FCA that something is still not right ?

OK, so both my complaints not been upheld. I realise its probably a standard winge from people when a decision doesn't go their way, but i've two complaints for the Independant adjudicator. And i do realise their remit. My last decision is so bad, don't worry i'm not going to replicate it nor name the Ombudsman involved because it is that embarrasing , but i'll guarantee it will not get published as it has been sent to me. It will either be changed or looked at afresh. So, i've a fortnight or so to go before i hear back from management before i can go to the assesor. Countdown now for next move from my lender. Nine days time will see three months with no payment made, and no request for payment. Also our mediation is now over and finished. I have managed to work out that if a Court did find in my favour, not even the whole way but just part way i.e 10 years payments which would comprise of the first ten years as its all practically interest. If it was compound, and there will be a good case for it, as its not a general MoneyClaim, then the sum returned could be in excess of £60K . Thats what i am working on now in more detail, i'm quite confident over most of the other stuff. Depending on what happens next i think i will widen my search out for other people affected by them in the same way. Suprising as it may seem, the figures for pre 2004 loans, not all will be CCA of course, runs into the thousands. Might try "Rip off Britain" for a bit of publicity over the matter.

Thank you for your words HB . I already realise this. I'm prepared for this.. I contacted a few for direct advice as a result. They say: we wouldn't be able to provide AFE insurance for such a claim etc....... And in short, they would go nowhere with it. Here is what i have decided to do and how i intend to go about it...... I'll do more tomorrow, its late and I'm tired.

Can someone please help me understand the Court process. I'm aware i can make a claim against my lender via a few options, but in any case irrespective of the merits or otherwise i would make a MoneyClaim, eg: Unfair Relationship, spell out what i need to spell out and ask for an amount i want to ask for. In this case it would be rescission of the contract.. so £34k with interest, whatever that come to... say £50K. So i pay a court fee for a £50K claim. I think i got that understanding correct ? If my lender takes me to Court, i've two options defend or defend and counter claim. If i defend, and i am confident over this. Then if a Court found in my favour they could agree i owe no more money and squash the lot. However this option would leave me getting nothing back unless i ask for it. If i defend and counterclaim, i would ask for rescission of the contract. Do i still need to pay a court fee? In short is there anyway around paying what seems to me to be a £5k plus court fee ?

No sooner i posted just had decision from Ombudsman on my S77(1) request . I'm just about to reject it. I'll post the DRN when i have it. Briefly: My lender was fair and reasonable by sending me an application form, completion documents and acceptance . Also a breakdown of total payments i.e capital and interest paid. "Your mortgage started on 23rd January1989. The amount of capital you have paid to date is £11698.10 and the amount of interest is £23178.54 " I note the Ombudsman dealing with my annual statements was quick to try and invoke MCOB requirements as all my lender needed to do. But for this complaint they have not seen the need for them to comply with CONC requirements.

CCA 1974 S110 Request recieved by them 2nd, March. £1 cheque cashed , or rather cleared today. So i'd assume they have accepted it as a valid request. 12 working days they have, so i'll not have to wait long.

I've already pointed this out to the Ombudsman that they are wrong. I've done it again last night. The FCA and the FOS done a consultation in 2015 on the Future Regulatory treatment of CCA regulated first charge mortgages. Its here : https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/1714/cp15-36.pdf extract: MCOB is literally "Mortgage Code of Business" rule book for lenders. If as the Ombudsman asserts......"my mortgage has come under MCOB since 2004" (not verbatim) it would make that consultation a moot consultation, its at odds with what the Ombudsman has said. As my agreement is a Regulated Consumer Credit agreement, regulated by statute and provided with protections and information requirements then no "Code of Business" can remove them protections. It is not possible to circumvent the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act in such way. What MCOB has done since 2016 is allow lenders who do not hold Consumer Credit permissions to administer these mortgages as a Regulated Mortgage Activity. The West Brom Building Society seem to know this too, for example they say: "Please note, if you have a mortgage regulated by the Consumer Credit Act your statement will contain additional information." Your annual mortgage statement explained | the West Brom WWW.WESTBROM.CO.UK A clear and easy breakdown of your annual mortgage statement explaining everything you need to know about your mortgage.

Got provisional desicion from Ombudsman today. Couldn't be any worse really. About as far wrong as you can get, but still i have to rely on them. I've gave a reply. Unless i get a change of descision before 20th then that will be it, its off to Court then. I've still not had an ask for payment but i guess that par for the course whilst we deal with "mediation" . Lets hope i done my homework correctly.

I'm going to keep going and update this as i go along. As secured loans are not something anyone seems to know about, then what i impart may be valuable , or not. I've done a S110 CCA request to my creditor. In brief it requires they send me details of any security "after" the making of the agreement. (my high light). I've shown in document above, my agreement for a MIG (Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee) is actually invalid as per CCA. I'm not going to dwell on that issue, as its a side issue of many. Fortunately i hold all my mortgage documentation, it was sent to me about 7 or 8 years ago as everything is "digitised" now. I am the registered proprietor of my property and my lender has a "legal charge" over the property. My understanding is that this is not what we call a "Legal Mortgage" its an "Equitable Mortgage". If it was a "legal mortgage" they would be the proprietor. S177 CCA provides : 177 Saving for registered charges. (1)Nothing in this Act affects the rights of a proprietor of a registered charge.... ................ etc. So i've looked at this in detail. I can find nothing to suggest i have signed anything on the date of the agreement, or after the date of the agreement. Infact my creditor will rely on "applications" etc... As a point of fact : This is an extract from Scott Vs. Southern Pacific Mortgages in 2014 "In the case of property purchase if a mortgage Deed is signed by the Mortgagor before they are the legal owner of the property. The Mortgagor does not have the right to grant any legal or equitable interest in or over the property before they become owner of it". I think i have a charge that can be removed. And as above i think i have paid for a MIG that has no validity either. I'm sort of going well beyond my comfort zone now as the stakes are so high. My attempt at self help has realistically got me no where. Granted i feel quite knowledgeable over the subject, but nothing is happening for me. I'm no further along with my creditor. I've spoken with Nationaldebtline today, they can't advise me any further. They've advised further outlets to try and suggest i keep up my repayments in the meantime. I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to keep on trying at this point and reaching out for help. I probably should of done this long ago, but i am where i am. Problem i have got is, no one has sent me a letter yet to tell me i owe anything. The minute they do i'm gonna walk in the office of ShelterUK.org in my underwear and ask for help not to lose my home. As ever , i'l keep you updated. If i don't i'll have a gagging order !!!!

Anyone any thoughts on this ?: S60 CCA 1974 lays out the form and content of agreements. I'll not copy and paste them as you probably know them and i havn't got an executed CCA agreement with them anyway . Its an improperly executed agreement and i'm well aware of all the ramifications that go along with that. It may be unenforceable, even irredemably unenforcable, but a debt still exists and they have a charge on my house which they will not remove until the debt is paid. What i do have though is my mortgage application form from August 1988, its four pages so i've not bothered up loading it. Its just a standard Building Society type application form. What i also have though, is my Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee information and my completion letter. I'll upload them. What has caught my eye during my research is CCA 1974 105 Form and content of securities. (1)Any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement shall be expressed in writing. (2)Regulations may prescribe the form and content of documents ( “security instruments ”) to be made in compliance with subsection (1). There are various other provisions, but the important ones to me are where it says the "security instrument" needs to comply with the prescribed regulations. If it doesn't then its an improperly executed "security instrument" . Also (6)Subsection (1) does not apply to a security provided by the debtor or hirer. So that rules me out, the form and content does not apply to me. Also if that MIG form i attatched is their "security" then its non compliant with CCA, but i would imagine its only Sun Alliances problem, not mine. The Consumer Credit (Guarantees and Indemnities) Regulations 1983 106 Ineffective securities. Where, under any provision of this Act, this section is applied to any security provided in relation to a regulated agreement, then, subject to section 177 (saving for registered charges)— (a)the security, so far as it is so provided, shall be treated as never having effect; (b)any property lodged with the creditor or owner solely for the purposes of the security as so provided shall be returned by him forthwith; (c)the creditor or owner shall take any necessary action to remove or cancel an entry in any register, so far as the entry relates to the security as so provided; and (d)any amount received by the creditor or owner on realisation of the security shall, so far as it is referable to the agreement, be repaid to the surety. S106 is quite "broader". "any security provided" and as i provided my house as security it applies to me? The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 set out what should be included in my S60 Agreement. S21 (Security provided by the debtor) 21. All types except those referred to in paragraph 20 in relation to which any security is to be provided by the debtor to secure the carrying out of the obligations of the debtor under the agreement. A description of the security to be provided by the debtor in relation to the agreement sufficient to identify it and— (a) a general description of any stocks and shares (including any right to become a stockholder or shareholder) to which it relates; and (b) in any other case a description of the subject matter to which it relates. So it looks like we have an ineffective security ? I'll do a S110 CCA request first thing Monday, along with the obligatory £1 cheque for a copy of any security instrument executed in relation to the agreement after the making of the agreement. mortgage1989.pdf

Different tack from them today as both complaints wind their way to an Ombudsman: I think they are going to have to make their mind up one way or another. Seems contradictory to me? This probably comes after i contacted them last week to ask them why the Ombudsman investigator was told i don't have a credit agreement with them, but i was never informed of this fact.

Things are moving a bit now. My S77(1) complaint that was initially refused, then gone open ended has now gone to an Ombudsman for a decision. My lender has stated this to the Ombudsman: ...the customer seems to refer to the Consumer Credit Act 78 and 77 throughout his complaint....the mortgage does not fall under the CCA regulation, it is bound by MCOB. As mortgages are variable interest rates and not a fixed loan, they do not entail a “credit agreement”`... what does the customer feel he is missing out on and what is the relevance of the information? Perhaps we could assist him in another way or provide the information he needs in the format he needs it. Right now, CCA does not fit into this scenario.... aside from the initial delay, I feel we have assisted the customer in providing as much information as we could. Its not Santander Complaints that deal with me BTW, its their "Risk and Compliance Division ". I probably need to do another two DSAR's. Also i have told my lender by letter i am not paying anymore money to them, and the next move is theirs. That may be the smartest or dumbest letter i ever sent, i guess i'll find out. Oddly , i'm not in arrears, i'm still in credit. My agreement should conclude in November this year. Some random stuff from Santander : what does the customer feel he is missing out on and what is the relevance of the information? Perhaps we could assist him in another way or provide the information he needs in the format he needs it. Right now, CCA does not fit into this scenario.... aside from the initial delay, I feel we have assisted the customer in providing as much information as we could. I shall summarise below, when the information was provided. 6) What I still have left to pay-Why is the customer requesting this? He is aware of the outstanding balance as it is contained on his mortgage statements he has received. There is no doubt he has received them, as he has referred to them in his original complaint.. 2)T&C’s – This would have been issued at the start of the mortgage. From my investigations, I cannot see that it has been requested throughout the complaint journey. The customer may be under the impression it has been requested if he is assuming it’s covered under the CCA 77/78 request, but as mentioned above, his mortgage does not come under this act. A copy of the T&C’s have been provided to your service previously.

DX100UK , thanks for this. I totally missed this point and focussed on other things. I might get lucky here as the Ombudsman is satisfied that this is something they can look at under the FCA DISP rules. Its just that the investigator so far is satisfied i had no financial loss due to these incorrect statements. I have until 3rd February to give any further submissions as the case has been passed on to an Ombudsman for a decision. Sure enough i have a few "arrears fees" of £35 added to my account if i made a late payment. I'll keep updated how this goes.

I wonder if some could help me understand some legal jargon please, i'm not sure i understand it and i just have a few days to get my last submission to the Ombudsman over my statements. From 2008 my statements had to be CCA compliant. This ended in 2016, they had to be compliant with MCOBS after that (2016 date). The sanction for non compliance via S77A is as follows : The FCA changed the rules and the law regarding this matter (annual statements) like i said in 2016. They say the following: So my question is.... exactly what does "accrued rights and defences being preserved" mean ? Does that mean if there was no entitlement to charge interest during the period of non compliance , that that situation still persists ? The right to that has not diminished or gone away ? I have Googled it, but to be honest i don't understand exactly the results i am reading as its mostly in "legalese" ?

All change again. I've pointed out that a decision appears to have been made about something i didn't complain about. I reiterated my complaint. Sent further proof that my lender has not closed the complaint , nor dealt with it. So the complaint is still activley being looked at . Related: On Twitter there is an elderly lady, aged nearly 80 and all she does is post about how they have scammed her too in the same way. From reading her posts it looks like she now has a brief on the case. From what i can see, she doesn't have a Consumer Credit Agreement, where i have. I'm mulling over wether to try contact her and see if there is anything we could do as a collective. Although , really me contacting an elderly lady about her mortgage somehow just seems off. I'm going to see what it is possible for me to do with the FCA, if they see there is a few of us slipped through the net they make take a positive action. There will be more in our position i guess. But probably all in that age range of 60 years old to 80 years old if they havn't died or moved. *Apologies. I keep stating S78 in my posts. Its S77. I've got it correct in my correspondance and complaints, but for some reason keep saying S78 here. Heads fizzled !! Email address on her website didn't work, i've left a voice message to get in touch. I've added a caveat that i'd like to speak to her about the same shared problems we are having but that i am not asking for any personal information, and if she is happy for a phone call i would sooner it be done in the presence of a younger family member, so as to be assured she is not speaking to scammers etc... For the avoidance of any doubt, this is who i have contacted. Its a public profile, who says a lot. I hope or expect i havn't crossed any line here as to what is acceptable. I'm just trying to be open and transparent: https://tinyurl.com/2p9a44pz

This is getting much worse for me. Complaint to Ombudsman............. S78 request for information not complied with at all, not one iota. Since June last year. Got my decision today from the investigator: Complaint: Here's the outcome: It shouldn't be this hard to get a S78 request . Not sure why the investigator appears so obtuse. I told them specifically it was a S78 request, i paid £1 and i still havn't got it. Its like they just answered a complaint i didn't make. So, i'm out of options now. This will now drag on for ages as i go back and forth with the ombudsman again. My last option , and its the only thing i can do now is sit back, don't pay and let them take me to Court. And it won't suprise me one iota if they don't even do that.

I've had a thought and i'd like to run it past the collective as it may hold a wider interest and i'm sure someone will let me know if i've got something wrong in my assumptions: Buildings Insurance: It was and probably still is, compulsory to have it on a mortgaged property. My lender required me to get it myself and if i didn't by say...1st April, they would provide it and debit me with the amount. For the sake of example lets say the insurance premium was £150 for the year. They would debit my account for £150 and i would just pay it back subsumed into my original agreement. I can't see how this provision of £150 credit escapes the Consumer Credit Act. It is £150 of restricted use credit, and its undocumented. It is still subject to the S60 requirements? My agreement was for a fixed sum credit agreement, so its not possible to "shoehorn" an extra £150 in to this agreement year on year either ? Any thoughts ?

Ok, got my answer back from investigator today. Complaint (S77A Annual statements) was not found in my favour. Reason being that my creditor provides : Details the date the mortgage started, balance outstanding, monthly payment and payment date. The summary also gives a figure for illustration purposes about the Early Repayment Charge (ERC) and the repayment fee.  I think this information would allow most customers to have an overview of their mortgage account and allow them to make informed decisions regarding this.vAlso says i have not been affected financially by this. I've asked for it to be elevated to an actual Ombudsman, that will take a few months more. So i'm not holding my breath over this. I've told them i had an agreement for £13,375.xx over 25 years starting 1989. I don't recognise an agreement for £13,301 over 31 years starting in 1993, therefore its incorrect..and i have been financially impacted by paying interest i am not liable to pay etc..... The investigator cleverly does not raise the issue of incorrect amount for credit, nor length of agreement. Pretty fundamental in a consumer credit agreement i would of thought. I was pretty deflated over that as i was certain it would be found in my favour, my only fear was they would offer a lesser amount than i expected. So i got that very wrong. My other complaint by same investigator still needs an outcome, that is failure to respond to a S77 request. No idea now whats going to happen with that, and maybe that fact that this simpler complaint has been left later may be poignant. It would reveal what should be on the statements................ . I am awaiting the outcome of this any week now. In the meantime, my mortgage payments for last year where approx £65 PM, i never paid since June as i was in credit. I've had a letter to tell me that my new payments are now £96 PM starting 23rd Jan. The agreement concludes in November this year so i must owe about a grand. I'm not going to pay a penny more so they will be forced to take me to Court for it. I think realistically that my only and next option. Also, another point i have picked up on. Whenever there is a variation in the interest rate my lender just sends me a letter telling me what my new monthly payment is. So thats what i pay. At no point have they ever told me a variation in interest rate. My understanding is that S82 (CCA) impels them to let me know the variation in interest rate, and that it cannot take effect until they do. I'm gonna run with that as a new complaint too. There maybe something in legislation that allows them to not tell me, for example if they publish it somewhere or other but i guess i'll find that out by asking them? Not sure how i havn't just give up at this point, i'm finding it so hard, so stressful and seemingly getting knocked down at every twist and turn but a thousand pound is a thousand pound, may not be a lot to some but it is to me. The harder i try and fail then the higher my expectations go and i'm doing everything possible to avoid taking them to court, if / when i do i want everything back they where not legally entitled too............ probably £36k with interest over 34 years. I realise i'm just venting here but boy do i feel ripped off. And, i'm not the only one.

Just an update with good news really, although i still may have a way to go: I have been allocated a new investigator, they have decided that as regards my complaint over non compliant statements (S78A) since 2008, that this is something they can look at. Short story, it is not reasonable that i would know about this stuff, or should know. My lender has not agreed and said 2008 is too long a time to go back. My lender had until 22nd this month to disagree or it will go ahead without them, i'm unsure of what they have done at this point but i guess i'll find out soon. Thats a short version. Next: my S78(1) complaint is being dealt with too by same investigator. This sort of all ties up nicely together really as there would seem to be no point in my lender trying to defer dealing with statements when they will have to deal with this too, and they had a similar deadline for this complaint too and no way out of it . So i'm certain this one at least will be dealt with and have an outcome before the end of January, probably well before. I feel a little bit lucky here because if my mortgage had of been for over £15K i would of had an unregulated loan and non of the CCA protections would of applied to me. Another clue (for me at least) that everything is going to work out fine for me is the fact i have not made a payment since at least June i think, and to date they have not asked me for one despite me asking when my next payment is due and how much i need to pay. Of course too, they will need to issue another (non compliant i assume) annual statement by mid January, so not sure where that leaves their train of thought? This tells me that they are now looking at the matter with some seriousness. Looking forward to 2023 and see what it brings me, Happy New Year to you all.

Ah, poor me. S78 request, i got all mixed up

So the Ombudsman said they would reply to my complaint about their investigator by 1st December. Nothing so far. In the meantime i'd contacted my lender again and set out the legal basis for my claim, they won't engage with me at all. They just state they are assuming the same position : they will not communicate with me and i should liase with my FOS adjudicator. Even though my claim is not related to what i have complained to FOS about them. Trading Standards have been in touch again, i have a reference number and they may get back to me for more information. Thats twice they've been back in touch with me , i was suprised by that really. So fingers crossed for reply from Ombudsman, i'm just trying everything before i have to press the "nuke" button and fill out the Court forms. Time is running out for S78(1) request too, i've waited 6 months for it as it is. The agreement has 11 months left to run before it concludes. I'll have to make a descision soon.

I'm going to answer my own question here a bit , i think. The Legislation.gov site shows changes since 1988. The wording of the Consumer Agreement exemption regulations changes quite a bit between 1985 and 1987 and i can see "building Societies" getting a specific mention in the later ones. I'm confident the change was around 1987. Can't be before 1986 as it was changed by the 1986 Building Societies Act .Looks like i can get the info from The Law Society. Hold on, got it just as i'm reading , and typing this. That change was brought in by the Building Society Act 1986 on July 1986. And there is no Abbey National Building Society excluded in any Order i've found

Hi again. The first barristers i contacted could not act for me as they would be compromised (my lenders Barristers!). Second one i asked gave me a fixed quote for advice , i wanted written advice they offered me a conference and conference notes. Price was eye watering to say the least. I have a private recommendation for another one, but i discovered a sticking point that i'd like to iron out for myself first. Someone here may be able to help, i can only ask. Its a simple question really, but hard to fathom out : "was my agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act at point of execution" ? Well it ticks all the correct boxes, it was under the £15k threshold at the time and its a personal debtor /creditor credit agreement. However , S16 (Exempt Agreements) of the CCA says : (1)This Act does not regulate a consumer credit agreement where the creditor is a local authority or building society, or a body specified, or of a description specified, in an order made by the Secretary of State, being— (a)an insurance company, (b)a friendly society, (etc) That is the CCA Original (as enacted), so on the face of it as my Creditor was a Building Society my agreement is exempt from the Act. My agreement was executed in January 1989, incidentally my Creditor ceased to be a Building Society as of July 1989 (they converted to PLC) , so if the agreement had of been executed after that then straight off it would not be an exempt agreement. Here is my problem. On the legislation.gov website it does not track the changes over time, so from the original as enacted we jump to how it was at a point in time, in this case 1991. Here is what it (S16) says in 1991: (1)This Act does not regulate a consumer credit agreement where the creditor is a local authority , or a body specified, or of a description specified, in an order made by the Secretary of State, being— (a)an insurance company, .............<snip> (g)a building society So we can see the position has changed dramatically for Building Societies, to be exempt they need to be specified in an order, such as the Consumer Credit (Exempt Agreements) Order 1989 for example. I can track how the change was made, it was made here : Building Societies Act 1986 WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK An Act to make fresh provision with respect to building societies and further provision with respect to conveyancing services. What i am unable to work out is exactly when that change was made. Any advice as to how i find out when that change was made ?